Madeleine McCann Runs With The Ball
ENGLAND’S rugby union squad is training in the Algarve. And they are wearing T-shirts with a picture of Madeleine McCann on the front. And the official Madeleine wristbands, this year’s Make Poverty History item.
“I really hope that today helps further to raise awareness of Madeleine’s disappearance,” says Jonny Wilkinson.
“My thoughts and those of the squad are with the family.”
Brian Ashton, England’s coach, meets with Gerry and Kate McCann. He says he is “humbled” to meet them. He is made to feel lowly. Rugby fans may wonder how Ashton finds reason to feel anything but humble, given his team’s results and performances.
“This generous gesture from the England squad, we hope, will remind sports fans that Madeleine is missing,” says Kate McCann.
Any moment now one of the players Madeline’s disappearance adds a sense of perspective to their imminent failure to retain the World Cup.
And we will say how sport, at its best, is about glory and lifting the human spirit. How sport enables us to escape the worst of mankind and life. How sport can break down boundaries and build bridges.
And, sadly, how sport is useless at finding a missing girl…
Posted: 5th, July 2007 | In: Madeleine McCann Comments (79) | Follow the Comments on our RSS feed: RSS 2.0 | TrackBack | Permalink
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August 5th, 2007 at 11:33 am
Lol…..Absolutely priceless……What a joke xx
July 29th, 2007 at 6:40 am
Morning Hon
I’m up at this ridiculously early hour on a Sunday thanks to a sad puppy who wanted a bottle of milk and lots of cuddles. He’s finally gone to sleep on my lap, so at least I can type lol.
Hope you had a good day at the beach - it was wonderful weather here yesterday (just like summer should be), so hopefully you had the same. My eldest walked at 10 months … it always looks so sweet to see such a tiny child toddling along under their own steam
My house was full of stairgates - I lived in a 3 story house at the time - getting up and down the stairs was like breaking into fort knox LOL.
Thanks for the words of encouragement about D … I know she will be fine and it will teach her some valuable life lessons along the way. You are perfectly right - Parenting IS bloody hard work!
I’m a glass half empty sort of person, but today I’m going to borrow your optimism - Thank you for that!
As to Frances … I’ve been racking my brains over her ‘revelation’ but I just can’t think of why she would make something up like that. How could anyone take money for defending something they believe in??? Beyond contempt.
Enough of her however … there are still plenty of decent people around, of which you are one - have faith in that reality and enjoy your day
Bubbles (the puppy - named so that I can say ‘My Bubbles’ in the manner of Finding Nemo) is now thoroughly asleep so I think I may chance trying for another hour or so of snoozing… one of the luxuries of having older kids is getting a Sunday lie in back lol.
Take Care Jane
Molly x
July 27th, 2007 at 11:06 am
Can we swap bosses? lol
It’s hard isn’t it? Some days I’m really positive and others I get overwhelmed by what feels like futility. Even when I’m asleep I seem to be dreaming about babies all the time - which is really wierd and hard to shake off in the mornings. Do you think we will ever know what really happened to her?
Very mixed emotions about D flying the nest - on the one hand I am immensely proud of her… she has come through a lot and at only 18 is sensible, hard working, great company and very grown up. She is a full time student but works as well and has decided to move out and live locally now, so that when she moves down to London for work in 10 months she will already be used to being independant. That way she will have us close by while she gets used to living by herself. See what I mean about sensible?
On the other hand she’s my baby, and I can’t help but worry about how she will manage, whether she will eat properly, if her college work will be done properly - it’s hard to let go and accept that I can’t watch over her every move for ever. Plus it makes me feel so damn OLD!!!!
Take Care and have a good day - it’s sunny here so hope you have some much needed sunshine too! Take the littlies to feed the ducks … it’s hard to feel down around ducks - they always make me laugh
((((HUG))))
Molly x
July 26th, 2007 at 7:28 am
I guess all we can do for now is to make sure that we hug all of those people around us who we CAN hug and make sure that our kids, families and friends know how much we love and appreciate them.
Mind you, I’m not so sure that hugging my boss is going to go down too well … perhaps I’ll skip that one
Take care of you and yours and have a good day with your little ones - they are not little for long enough. My eldest is leaving home next week and it doesn’t seem more than a blink of an eye since she was the age of your youngest … where did all those years go?
Molly
July 23rd, 2007 at 2:17 pm
Hi Jane
Me too … I took a break from both news and internet over most of the weekend and logged on today, hoping against hope that something, anything, new might have come up… but no - just the same re-hashing
Frustrating AND depressing … so have a (((HUG)))
Molly
July 23rd, 2007 at 8:05 am
LOL Themis
These are 3 weeks old and absolutely huge … we have had to start supplementary bottle feeding as Mum is only a small dog and just can’t cope - they are simply adorable though.
They are loving their new indoor pen - starting to toddle around and play now. I am so going to miss them when they go to their new homes!
Molly
July 21st, 2007 at 5:58 pm
Enjoy them Molly, I will have 2 18 week old ones from tonight, one is here already, and my 13 to 14 year old rescue boy is getting a little shattered.
July 21st, 2007 at 3:07 pm
I think a National Identity card is on the cards (excuse the pun!) over here, but I was under the impression that it would be for over 16/18’s only … I could be wrong of course - I often am lol. If it was done from shortly after birth though, then wouldn’t it add a greater protection for children as well? I know that all children have to have their own passports now, but they change so much over even the short duration of it’s validity - fingerprints and iris recognition would stay constant and make it so much harder to pass one child off for another.
I certainly have no fundamental objection to a National Identity card - and legitimate, law abiding citizens are pretty much nannied and watched by the state anyway, to pretend otherwise seems delusional to me. If it could be used to provide extra security for children then it can only be a good thing … God knows the systems we have in place seem to fail them far too regularly
Have a good day - I’m off to build a pen for my now mobile puppies, who are daily reminding me what hard work it is to have babies around LOL
July 20th, 2007 at 11:36 pm
Jane,
I think its going to take as long as it takes, like everyone I’d love to hear she has been found alive and well and untraumatised. The Police must have informers, international and otherwise,well they do as they have raised some names already. I think though we are probably trying not to anticipate our darkest fears that her body will be found,and maybe look on it as no news could be the better option?
But as has been pointed out frequently some are never found, and some turn up after years, so I guess this may be one of the long haul ones?
The 400 going missing every week was in the Press at the time of Madeleine disappearing, and its the average annual statistic, doesn’t seem to vary much either.
Just a passing thought too, Praia de Luz must be the safest place now to take children on holiday, if not a very happy place
July 20th, 2007 at 4:39 pm
The stats are indeed horrifying … they are not all children of course - that figure includes missing adults as well. A lot of the others will be teenage runaways (still scary as so many of them end up on the streets and in prostitution), and presumably the figure also includes children who are reported as missing but have been abducted by a parent?
Slightly off topic … but while typing this (it’s a quiet Friday afternoon in the office thank goodness) I just had a thought:
If we had a National Identity Card, which included a National Database with fingerprint and iris recognition technology … with every citizen included on the ‘register’ from birth would it not enable an awful lot of missing people to be accounted for through fingerprints/irises? If they were adults and wanted to stay ‘missing’ as far as family and friends were concerned then that should obviously be honoured in that their whereabouts would not be disclosed - but it might ease an awful lot of heartache for a lot of people and considerably reduce the amount of people who are officially listed as missing… just a thought and doubtless one which would be dismissed instantly under the Civil Rights flag.
Back to Madeleine and the Portuguese Police … I’m given to understand that, unlike here - where the Police can arrest somebody under Suspicion of committing a crime, the Portuguese Judicial System requires that the Police have enough evidence to take a case to court (and almost guarantee securing a conviction) before they arrest someone. This may be why the process seems to be slower.
Molly
July 20th, 2007 at 1:24 pm
Jane,
The more haste the less speed, no point in making an unsafe arrest because the punters are getting impatient, a slow and thorough investigation and a sound arrest may take more time. There is no hard and fast time limit on this.
Most of the evidence will now have to come from Madeleine, hopefully found alive with indisputable evidence of where her whereabouts were/are, or in the case of her body being found from post mortem evidence.
A section of Interpol would be the best way for international police efforts, but the laws of the country where the event happens must be respected.
On the subject on childen who are missing, then end of the news isn’t too good a place, most people are either kettle or loo bound, but a seperate prog for what have become routinely missing children, and an alert news breaking for the newly missing which interrupts tv programmes.
Of course sadly, people ’see’ missing children everywhere and dealing with the hoaxers will be a problem, and the genuinely mistaken another.
Given also that since May3rd some 4,500 other people have gone missing, a lot of them children, a difficult task for the tv companies to administer
July 20th, 2007 at 11:56 am
Absolutely Molly,
I think Police discretion is much the better option, after all its real crime , not a tv prog.
But more often than not it isn’t the police who find the body of evidence (I’m using that phrase, as I truly hope she is alive somewhere) but a member of the public, or even their dog.
I’m not at all convinced about Murat’s guilt either, in fact with each passing day and he remains free his innocence becomes more and more obvious in this matter, and maybe just a topic for the Inland revenue and not the Police.
But, returning to your topic of International Child kidnap, I do think that is a good idea, both for an International team of police experts to be formed, and a regularly updated file kept on all known paedophiles and other abusers of children, including parents who have harmed their own children. This wouldn’t include 17yr old boys who have seduced their 15 yr old girlfriends, that is a seperate issue and should be kept well apart.
So much time has passed, and so much evidence obscured and/or dead ended, the time has come for deeper questioning.
On another matter I was witness to an attempted murder, in fact I was one of 3 instrumental in bringing the matter to light,(I can’t say as its still subjudice) But our evidence of what we saw, and subsequent tests of the victim, who is still alive, confirmed both what we had witnessed and shed light on some questions that the tests threw up. But the time lapse was only a few days to allow the tests to be conducted, but our statements were only hours after the event, not months later.
July 20th, 2007 at 11:15 am
All of the above is completely true Themis … but a purely physical search, co-ordinated by the Portuguese police as they know the territory would still be possible. It would not even necessarily need to include any logistical input by UK police - purely a manpower exercise, and certainly SHOULD involve the existing silence and no information (I actually do believe that frustrating though this is to us, who are used to a different approach, it is a good operating procedure and one which we should probably adopt in line with the rest of Europe).
Although it is true to say that once a culprit has been found then the truth, and therefore Madeleine’s whereabouts, will become clear, it is still possible that a culprit may never be found. Although the papers over here are leaning towards Murat, I remain unconvinced, and given that this is a tourist resort with so many of the people (any one of whom could theoretically be responsible) in PDL at the time, now scattered and largely untraceable it is not inconceivable that no amount of going over the existing statements and further questioning will elicit any answers.
If however a body (and I fear that it probably will be a body) is found, it may well yield at least some answers and possibly some leads which may come to fruition in terms of identifying a culprit.
Molly
July 20th, 2007 at 10:03 am
Firstly there are the logistics in all this ‘cooperation’ The UK Police have no jurisdiction in Portugal (it would the same if a Portuguese child went missing over here and our Police were told to cooperate with the Portuguese police, by the people of Portugal) So, firstly Portuguese laws would have to be adapted to allow this, that may not happen. The Portuguese law of silence and no information would still be applied. The PJ do have local knowledge of the area and known paedophiles, the UK police would literally be on unknown foreign terrain, a major handicap, don’t you think?
The facts still remain the same, the apartment was contaminated and made forensic technology useless. A lot of very unreliable ‘witnesses’ both in the McCann party and others at the resort. The trail went cold very quickly. None of the above are down to poor policing. Most of the people involved as witnesses were on holiday, it was late at night, not surprisingly they will have consumed a few drinks, I am NOT saying people were legless, far from it, but even so their judgement and memory will be impaired, and time plays some wonderful tricks combined with the actualite and what could have been.
All the suspects/witnesses do need to be questioned very carefully by psychatrists/psychologists under caution, the truth is there somewhere, it just needs bringing out, and then the whereabouts of Madeleine McCann will be known.
July 20th, 2007 at 7:29 am
I totally agree with you (we seem to be agreeing with each other a lot these days… did you ever think you would see the day? lol) - politics and ego should have no place in any investigation like this… it’s a sweet little girl missing, who cares WHO finds her and finds out what happened, just as long as she is found!
Perhaps public opinion and pressure could be used to push both Police Forces to collaborate on this? Not through the media but from personal letters and representations? I have already written to my MP and Gordon Brown asking that all parents of missing children be given the same level of support as the McCanns have received in terms of help with publicity and so on. I wonder who would be the best ‘targets’ on both sides to push for co-operation in a massive search of Portugal? I know that a lot of people are not confident in letter writing, but ‘form’ letters could always be posted on all forums for people to copy, paste, print and send (or even email) - complete with all the relevant addresses - what do you think?
At least it would be something concrete and positive to do rather than brooding, and surely no-one, whatever ’side’ of the fence they are on, could object?
Lets gloss over what my Portuguese friends say - they desperately want Madeleine found, but the parents’ welcome is wearing a little thin shall we say.
Sorry for the delay in response with this one - my posting tends to be fitted in during lunch breaks during the day, and in the evenings anything involving the computer depends on my ability to shoehorn one or the other of the kids off of it first lol! Early weekday mornings are my only guaranteed time on the PC and even then the amount of time depends on how long I have walked the dogs for… some days they are bouncier than others!
Its been so many years since I had little ones that it is a stretch to remember just how stressful and demanding they can be … Have a good day all of you - I’ll be thinking of you as well as Madeleine today
Molly
July 19th, 2007 at 12:42 pm
LOL … thanks Jane, and you’re welcome to the hug
I’m actually English - why did you assume I’m American? (just out of curiosity - it isn’t really important lol).
I have a couple of Portuguese friends, and my parents live in Europe. Most European Police Forces work in a similar fashion to the PJ in respect of secrecy and limiting information released… I guess it makes a lot of sense in some ways as it does reduce the chances of tipping off criminals and of de-railing any future court cases, but for us here in the UK it is incredibly frustrating!
I really do not believe that they are inept, although Portugal is a small and relatively poor country with very little serious crime so the police force is underfunded and has limited experience in this type of ‘big’ case. Unfortunately I don’t think that the criticism by the British Press has encouraged any major co-operation between British and Portuguese police, which might have helped in terms of manpower and resources. It is also possible that the hunt for international child traffickers spread the investigating forces even thinner, giving the trail time to go cold - to be honest I feel that the British media are partly to blame there as well by applying so much pressure that the PJ were forced into following that avenue, when perhaps, if left to their own methods and ideas, they might have chosen to investigate along more local lines in the first place.
I’m not sure what the protocol in Portugal would be in terms of searching empty properties - although I totally agree with you that every one of them should have been gone through, inside and out, with a fine toothcomb. Even over here the Police would have needed a warrant to search each and every property - if that is the case in Portugal (or even if it is even more complicated and would need property owner co-operation) then it would be a logistical nightmare.
It isn’t only empty properties though … in Portugal there are still a lot of wells, disused or otherwise, drainage pipes and systems, farm outbuildings, shepherd huts and of course all the unpopulated shrubland - so very many places where a small child could be hidden un-noticed for a long time. Whenever a child goes missing over here we always see the images of police and public combing over whole areas in a fingertip search - literally leaving no pebble unturned, yet we don’t seem to have seen that at all in Portugal - perhaps because of the original insistence that Madeleine must have been taken out of the country?
With the PJ now saying that they believe Madeleine to still be in Portugal, wouldn’t now be a good time to go back to basics and hold a full on inch by inch search? That is certainly what I would be pushing for - I know that it is a lot of ground to cover, but she must be SOMEWHERE, and it feels like a logical place to start, don’t you think?
Molly
July 19th, 2007 at 8:14 am
Jane ….. (((((HUG)))))
I know what you mean - thinking about the possibilities from Madeleine’s perspective (which is what comes naturally for me, rather than from her parents’) is just too horrific for words. I think that that is why I tend to stick to anger at G & K, logic, facts and statistics… I can deal with those, unproductive though the anger aspect may be
I would be a basket case myself - I’m guessing that it is complete Denial which enables them to behave as they do… despite my anger at them, any other possibility is just too outlandish to even contemplate. The mind is a very resourceful and complicated tool, especially when it comes to survival.
Molly
July 18th, 2007 at 12:46 pm
LOL!!!
Did we have the same Mother? Mine instilled exactly the same rules in me, and I can still vividly remember a very similar incident happening to me, and the neighbour being equally outraged.
I think about her too - it’s a hard story to shake, especially with no closure. I guess that people don’t really ’see’ things unless they appear out of the ordinary … we are all so wrapped up in our own concerns and thoughts that we just don’t really observe and take notice of what goes on around us. I know I’m guilty of that - not with people I know obviously, but I walk to work and back, go shopping, walk the dogs - all the stuff of daily life, without really LOOKING at other people.
This is a busy tourist resort, where people are presumably used to seeing kids in PJ’s being ferried around in the evenings. As long as Madeleine wasn’t screaming or drawing attention in some other way then I don’t suppose anyone would have given her a second glance
I’d love to believe that she is still alive, but I am at heart a realist (I’m sure that you will understand that life has made me that way), and statistically it is tragically unlikely … poor little scrap.
Molly
July 17th, 2007 at 2:52 pm
LOL Jane …. I truly dread to think about what a psychiatrist would make of the (albeit unknowing) Ex Wife of a paedophile being married to an abuse victim … but it works for us, perhaps by exorcising old demons through each other.
No, you’re right - there is no pill to make the pain go away for my H, and he has had some hard times with it over the years … he’s the survivor though, and I’m proud of him for rising above it - and proud of my kids for coping with all that they have had to deal with.
Abuse really has touched my life far too closely over the years - and it is the knowledge that I have gained from that, and concern for Madeleine which keeps me hooked to this case…. as we go through life there are indeed certain cases which touch us - and yes they do usually involve children… particularly when those children are of a comparable age to our own.
You are a compassionate person, (as indeed am I believe it or not lol). We are just both compassionate from slightly different angles and about different things. that doesn’t make either of us wrong - just different
Molly
July 16th, 2007 at 3:36 pm
Thanks for the reply, Molly.
“A personal knowledge of the other person’s personality is pretty much essential if the empathiser is to truly ‘know and feel’ what the other is feeling.”
Yes. However, I think we can all empathize with a lost child without knowing her personally. I guess you’re saying that most people are empathizing with her parents rather than with her.
Your pregnant colleague analogy doesn’t quite work in this case. Normal people respond to a pregnancy with a range of emotions from distress to delight. You are right that one would have to know the person involved to empathize with her feelings about pregnancy. But, normal people respond to their child missing with a narrower range of emotions. Yes, people are projecting “how I would feel” but they are unlikely to be far off the mark.
In this case, some people read the McCanns as not “normal” because they left their children unsupervised. Hence they don’t believe that the McCanns’ response to their missing child is a normal one, and hence they don’t have sympathy. I understand that.
“the ‘normal’ reaction (and the one I see most of in daily life) is probably the most healthy… that of an initial ‘how sad’ followed by a mild interest for the duration of each accidentally encountered news item. In other words, no more or less interest than in any other of the news stories of death, destruction and carnage that bombard us on a daily basis. That is human nature - in order to carry on our own lives in a functional manner we must be able to detach from the majority of bad things which happen to others or risk becoming completely overwhelmed/depressed/non-functional.”
I completely and absolutely agree with you. We do and should detach from the “majority of bad things which happen to others.” But we do and maybe should respond to the minority.
July 16th, 2007 at 12:59 pm
Jane’s excellent post above really serves to illustrate that we all come to consider this case from our own experiences/beliefs/perceptions … I remember well my own children being tiny and projecting my own imagined reactions in the Alexandra Griffiths case. In fact that case was instrumental in my insisting on giving birth to my other children at home rather than in hospital.
Jane, our basic differences here are that I am not convinced that Madeleine was actually taken from the apartment (as you say, lets not argue the point). I do however believe that she was abducted - I have never been one to subscribe to conspiracy theories of any kind and I’m not about to start now lol… Yes of course I am thinking of Madeleine - if both of us weren’t then we wouldn’t be here.
My own children are much older now - almost adults in fact, and over the course of their growing I too have been suspicious of just about everyone in terms of my children’s safety. I’ve had to be hyper aware - their biological Father (my 1st husband) turned out to be a paedophile … I left him as soon as I found out of course, but I spent 3 long years battling through the court system to keep him away from them. My 2nd Husband, who has brought the children up from very small, is an abuse survivor and hence our whole attitude towards child rearing has been very, very aware of dangers posed, not just by strangers, but in particular by people who have legitimate access to our kids.
Perhaps that pre-disposes me to be dismissive of the McCanns’ behaviour and also to have far more knowledge of paedophiles and their behaviour patterns than I would wish (and hence to hold the beliefs that I do), in just the same way that you being a mother of young children makes it easier for you to imagine yourself in the McCanns’ position.
The bottom line, and what is really important, is that we are both on Madeleine’s side, and the side of all suffering children whoever and wherever they may be.
Molly
July 15th, 2007 at 11:47 am
Pmihc
Firstly, sorry for the delay in answering what are some extremely good questions… no reflection on the questions at all, just some long awaited sunshine and a garden much in need of urgent attention.
In respect of empathy … yes I do believe that in general empathy can be either inert or dynamic (not sure if they are exact opposites but it is a good fit). Whether inert empathy becomes dynamic, in that it leads onto some kind of positive action, would probably depend upon the personality of the empathiser - some people are natural ‘wallowers’ even in their own emotions, so are unlikely to take positive action in respect of their reaction to someone else’s.
However - as we can see from the definition of empathy, it is a skill/ability which virtually all people have and which is necessary (in a social sense) in our dealings with others on a daily basis. It is essentially ones ability to take clues from the verbal reactions, body language and personal knowledge of the other person in order to understand what they are feeling and why. A personal knowledge of the other person’s personality is pretty much essential if the empathiser is to truly ‘know and feel’ what the other is feeling:
A simple example of this would be how you react on hearing that a work colleague is pregnant…. do you congratulate enthusiastically, or commiserate? How you react would depend on how the news was broken (tone of voice, body language), and on a higher level, to how well you know the person involved… without that information you are reacting only to your own beliefs as to how YOU would feel in the same situation - which is not empathy, but projection. The same principles apply to the McCann case …. people believe that they are empathising, whereas in fact they are projecting ‘how I would feel’, precisely because they do not know the real personalities of the people involved.
As to whether enjoying a debate over a case involving a child’s suffering is healthy, on either side of the fence - well you have a VERY good point there. The answer perhaps is that the ‘normal’ reaction (and the one I see most of in daily life) is probably the most healthy… that of an initial ‘how sad’ followed by a mild interest for the duration of each accidentally encountered news item. In other words, no more or less interest than in any other of the news stories of death, destruction and carnage that bombard us on a daily basis. That is human nature - in order to carry on our own lives in a functional manner we must be able to detach from the majority of bad things which happen to others or risk becoming completely overwhelmed/depressed/non-functional.
As to how either ’side’ involved in these debates may have translated into positive action to better the world.
Well I accept Jane’s point that a world without slander would be a better place (and also accept that I am guilty as charged) … she demonstrated her point effectively, although a little clarification at the start might have made it even more so
I would add to her point that, hopefully, the efforts of herself and others of the same opinion will lead to a heightened awareness of the plight of children in danger everywhere, be they trafficked from developing countries or orphaned/injured in war zones.
As to whether scepticism and questioning of the McCanns has been translated into positive action … well I can direct you to one of the earlier threads where I posted a link and details of child sponsorship programs. I and others have also suggested a number of positive actions that, whilst not specifically related to the McCann case, might help to make the world a better place … from writing letters for Amnesty International to volunteering a few hours a week in your local charity shop.
More tenuously I would also hope that along the way I and others have highlighted the fact that the vast majority of children who are abused suffer at the hands of someone who knows them rather than by stranger abduction (again not directly related to the case in hand), and encouraged people not to take things at face value - a vital tool if child abuse in general is to be reduced.
Molly
July 15th, 2007 at 12:26 am
Jane, I think a world with less libel and slander would be a better world, so yes, you gave me an answer I was looking for, thanks. (I’m responding to your actions in the ‘Going Dutch’ forum as you directed me to.)
Anyone else?
July 13th, 2007 at 5:36 pm
“Good changes in the world (stopping children dying of disease and starvation, preventing mass genocide from happening again, preventing abuse of all vulnerable people - children and the elderly, making sure that our neighbours are not depressed and lonely) happen because of positive ACTION… not because of inert empathy.”
Molly, don’t you think empathy can lead to positive action? It may begin inert and then change to dynamic (is that the opposite of inert?)
And is enjoying debate over a case where a child has suffered any healthier than empathy?
(I’m “guilty” of both these responses.)
I think you and Jane raise really interesting questions here, about what “healthy” means and what being human means.
Here’s a challenge: can anyone find evidence of a poster on these forums translating his or her empathy, or sympathy, into positive action to better the world? (And I don’t mean prayer.)
Here’s another: can anyone find evidence of a poster on these forums translating his or her scepticism and questioning of the McCanns into positive action to better the world? (And I don’t mean the attempt to influence public opinion.)
July 13th, 2007 at 1:31 pm
For those who wish Frances and cohorts to have free rein on a site, we respectfully suggest you ask the McCanns to fund one for her, or even fund it yourselves.
It will truly then be the epitome of ‘Free Speech’ and ‘Democracy’
July 13th, 2007 at 12:59 pm
Wikipedias defintion of Empathy for ‘Jane’
Empathy
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Emotions
Acceptance
Affection
Aggression Ambivalence
Anger
Compassion
Despair
Disgust
Doubt
Empathy
Envy
Embarrassment
Euphoria
Fear
Forgiveness
Frustration
Guilt
Gratitude
Grief
Happiness
Hate
Hope
Horror
Hostility
Homesickness
Hysteria
Jealousy
Loneliness
Love
Pity
Pleasure
Rage
Regret
Remorse
Sadness
Shame
Suffering
Surprise
Sympathy
v • d • e
Not to be confused with Pity, Sympathy, or Compassion.
For the fictional character, see Empath (comics).
Empathy (from the Greek εμπάθεια, “to make suffer”) is commonly defined as one’s ability to recognize, perceive and directly feel the emotion of another. As the states of mind, beliefs, and desires of others are intertwined with their emotions, one with empathy for another may often be able to more effectively define another’s mode of thought and mood. Empathy is often characterized as the ability to “put oneself into another’s shoes”, or experiencing the outlook or emotions of another being within oneself, a sort of emotional resonance.
The word ‘empathy’ is the late translation into English from the German ‘einfühlung’. This last word was coined by the philosopher Robert Vischer (1847-1933). First time Vischer defined even its specific meaning of aesthetic sympathy. This practically is the sentiment, not otherwise definable, which one feels in the face of a work of art. His father Friedrich Theodor Vischer had already made use of the evocative word ‘einfühlen’ in his studies about architecture, in accordance with the rules of the Idealism.
Contents [hide]
1 Definitions of empathy
2 Discussion
3 Methods for empathising
4 Contrasting empathy to other phenomena
5 Psychological perspectives
6 Empathy and autism spectrum disorders
7 Empathy in animals
8 Neurological basis
9 Development of empathy
10 Other aspects
11 Empathic accuracy
12 Fiction
13 Empathy in History
14 See also
15 References
16 External links
17 Bibliography
[edit] Definitions of empathy
Theodore Lipps: Einfühlung (”feeling into”).[1]
Edith Stein: Empathy… is the experience of foreign consciousness in general[2]
Heinz Kohut: Empathy is the capacity to think and feel oneself into the inner life of another person.[3]
Nancy Eisenberg: An affective response that stems from the apprehension or comprehension of another’s emotional state or condition, and that is similar to what the other person is feeling or would be expected to feel[4]
Roy Schafer: Empathy involves the inner experience of sharing in and comprehending the momentary psychological state of another person.[5]
D. M. Berger: The capacity to know emotionally what another is experiencing from within the frame of reference of that other person, the capacity to sample the feelings of another or to put oneself in another’s shoes.[6]
R. R. Greenson: To empathize means to share, to experience the feelings of another person. [7]
Wynn Schwartz “We recognize others as empathic when we feel that they have accurately acted on or somehow acknowledged in stated or unstated fashion our values or motivations, our knowledge, and our skills or competence, but especiallly as they appear to recognize the significance of our actions in a manner that we can tolerate their being recognized.” [8]
Carl Rogers: To perceive the internal frame of reference of another with accuracy and with the emotional components and meanings which pertain thereto as if one were the person, but without ever losing the “as if” condition. Thus, it means to sense the hurt or the pleasure of another as he senses it and to perceive the causes thereof as he perceives them, but without ever losing the recognition that it is as if I were hurt or pleased and so forth.[9]
Jean Decety: a sense of similarity in feelings experienced by the self and the other, without confusion between the two individuals.[10]
Martin Hoffman: An affective response more appropriate to another’s situation than one’s own. [11]
[edit] Discussion
Since empathy involves understanding the emotions of other people, the way it is characterised is derivative of the way emotions themselves are characterised. If for example, emotions are taken to be centrally characterised by bodily feelings, then grasping the bodily feelings of another will be central to empathy. On the other hand, if emotions are more centrally characterised by combinations of beliefs and desires, then grasping these beliefs and desires will be more essential to empathy.
Furthermore, a distinction should be made between deliberately imagining being another person, or being in their situation, and simply recognizing their emotion. The ability to imagine oneself as another person is a sophisticated imaginative process that only fully develops with time, or with considerable training, investigation, or imagination. However the basic capacity to recognize emotions is probably innate and may be achieved unconsciously. Yet it can be trained, and achieved with various degrees of intensity or accuracy.
The human capacity to recognize the bodily feelings of another is related to one’s imitative capacities, and seems to be grounded in the innate capacity to associate the bodily movements and facial expressions one sees in another with the proprioceptive feelings of producing those corresponding movements or expressions oneself. Humans also seem to make the same immediate connection between the tone of voice and other vocal expressions and inner feeling. See neurological basis below.
There is some debate concerning how exactly the conscious experience (or phenomenology) of empathy should be characterized. The basic idea is that by looking at the facial expressions or bodily movements of another, or by hearing their tone of voice, one may get an immediate sense of how they feel (as opposed to more intellectually noting the behavioral symptoms of their emotion). Though empathic recognition is likely to involve some form of arousal in the empathiser, they may not experience this feeling as belonging to their own body, but instead likely to perceptually locate the feeling ‘in’ the body of the other person. Alternatively the empathiser may instead get a sense of an emotional ‘atmosphere’ or that the emotion belongs equally to all the parties involved.
More fully developed empathy requires more than simply recognizing another’s emotional state. Since emotions are typically directed towards objects or states of affairs, the empathiser may first require some idea of what that object might be (where object can include imaginary objects, concepts, other people, or even the empathiser). Alternatively the recognition of the feeling may precede the recognition of the object of that emotion, or even aid the empathiser in discovering the object of the other’s emotion. The empathiser may also need to determine how the emotional state affects the way in which the other perceives the object. For example, the empathizer needs to determine which aspects of the object to focus on. Hence it is often not enough that the empathiser recognize the object toward which the other is directed, plus the bodily feeling, and then simply add these components together. Rather the empathiser needs to find the way into the loop where perception of the object affects feeling and feeling affects the perception of the object. The following sequence of examples identifies some of the major factors in empathising with another:
I sense that:
Frank is feeling annoyed, (via facial, vocal or postural expression).
Frank is feeling annoyed due to not getting what he wants, (general object of emotion).
Frank is feeling annoyed because he missed his train, (particular object of emotion)
Frank is feeling annoyed because he missed his train, but only by a few seconds, (focus of particular object).
Frank is feeling annoyed because he only just missed his train and he had an important meeting to get to, (background non-psychological context).
Frank is feeling annoyed because he only just missed his train, and he had an important meeting and because he is generally an irritable sort of person (character traits).
It should also be noted that the extent to which a person’s emotions are publicly observable, or mutually recognised as such has significant social conseqences. Empathic recognition may or may not be welcomed or socially desirable. This is particularly the case where we recognise the emotions that someone has towards ourselves during real time interactions. The appropriate role of empathy in our dealings with others is highly dependent on the circumstances. For instance, it is claimed that clinicians or caregivers must take care not to be too sensitive to the emotions of others, to over-invest their own emotions, at the risk of draining away their own resourcefulness.
There are also concerns that the empathiser’s own emotional background may affect or distort what emotions they perceive in others. Empathy is not a process that is likely to deliver certain judgements about the emotional states of others. It is a skill that is gradually developed throughout life, and which improves the more contact we have with the person with whom we empathise. Accordingly, any knowledge we gain of the emotions of the other must be revisable in light of further information. Thus awareness of these limitations is prudent in a clinical or caregiving situation.
[edit] Methods for empathising
When seeking to communicate with another, it may be helpful to demonstrate empathy with the other, to open-up the channel of communication with the other. In this case two methods of empathy are possible:
a) either simulate ‘pretend’ versions of the beliefs, desires, character traits and context of the other and see what emotional feelings this leads to;
b) or simulate the emotional feeling and then look around for a suitable reason for this to fit.
Either way, full empathetic engagement is supposed to help to understand and anticipate the behavior of the other.
Empathy may be painful to oneself: seeing the pain of others, especially as broadcasted by mass media, can cause one temporary or permanent clinical depression; a phenomenon which is sometimes called weltschmerz.
Without a basic emotional understanding of others there is no basis for relationship, therefore a tension struggle lies in the dilemma to protect oneself from the pain of empathy or seek to relate to other humans despite the potential risk of injury.
[edit] Contrasting empathy to other phenomena
One must be careful not to confuse empathy with either sympathy, pity, emotional contagion or telepathy. Sympathy is the feeling of compassion for another, the wish to see them better off or happier, often described as “feeling sorry” for someone. Pity is feeling that another is in trouble and in need of help as they cannot fix their problems themselves. Emotional contagion is when a person (especially an infant or a member of a mob) imitatively ‘catches’ the emotions that others are showing without necessarily recognising this is happening. Telepathy is a controversial paranormal phenomenon, whereby emotions or other mental states can be read directly, without needing to infer, or perceive expressive clues about the other person.
Sympathy is, “I’m sorry for your sadness, I wish to help.”
Pity is, “Things are bad for you, you seem as though you need help.”
Emotional Contagion is, “I feel sad.”
Empathy is, “I feel your sadness.”
Apathy is, ” I don’t care how you feel. ”
Telepathy is, “I read your sadness without you expressing it to me in any normal way.”
[edit] Psychological perspectives
Heinz Kohut is the main introducer of the principle of empathy in psychoanalysis. His principle applies to the method of gathering unconscious material. The possibility of not applying the principle is granted in the cure. For instance when you must reckon with another principle, that of reality.
Some experts (psychologists, psychiatrists, and other scientists) believe that not all humans have an ability to feel empathy or perceive the emotions of others. For instance, Autism and related conditions such as Asperger’s syndrome are often (but not always) characterized by an apparent reduced ability to empathize with others. The interaction between empathy and autism spectrum disorders is a complex and ongoing field of research, and is discussed in detail below.
According to Simon Baron-Cohen’s ideas, this absence might be related to an absence of theory of mind (i.e., the ability to model another’s world view using either a theory-like analogy between oneself and others, or the ability to simulate pretend mental states and then apply the consequences of these simulations to others). Again, not all autistics fit this pattern, and the theory remains controversial.
In contrast, psychopaths are seemingly able to demonstrate the appearance of sensing the emotions of others with such a theory of mind, often demonstrating care and friendship in a convincing manner, and can use this ability to charm or manipulate, but they crucially lack the sympathy or compassion that empathy often leads to. Empathy certainly does not guarantee benevolence. The same ability may underlie schadenfreude (taking pleasure in the pain of another entity) and sadism (being sexually gratified through the infliction of pain or humiliation on another person).
Moreover, some research suggests that people are more able and willing to empathize with those most similar to themselves. In particular, empathy increases with similarities in culture and living conditions. We are also more likely to empathize with those with whom we interact more frequently (See Levenson and Reuf 1997 and Hoffman 2000: 62).
Developing skills of empathy is often a central theme in the recovery process for drug addicts.
Even more, people can empathize with animals. As such, empathy is thought to be a driving psychological force behind the animal rights movement (an example of sympathy), whether or not using empathy is justified by any real similarity between the emotional experiences of animals and humans.
[edit] Empathy and autism spectrum disorders
A common source of confusion in analyzing the interactions between empathy and autism spectrum disorders (ASD) is that the apparent lack of empathy may mask at least two other underlying causes:
Excessive sensitivity or “overwhelm,” may be a cause of early learned suppression.
Failure to demonstrate empathy can arise from inability (or not knowing how) to express empathy to others, as opposed to difficulty feeling it internally [1].
for the entire definition here is the link
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empathy
July 12th, 2007 at 6:49 pm
Jane , perhaps you are feeling ’sympathy’ about Madeleine’s plight , as we all are.
Real empathy would be too painful to NOT do anything about it.
Very few people a true ‘empathisers’, they pick up peoples’ angst even just passing them in the street.
But remember too that the Police do NOT use the word ‘abducted’ , she is missing, no more (hopefully as yet) and no less
July 12th, 2007 at 4:35 pm
I’m sorry Jane, but I really don’t know how to explain to you …
You ask how not to take being called a ‘Chimp’ or ‘Gerry’s Groupie’ personally, but I genuinely cannot understand why you WOULD take it so. I’m honestly not being unkind here and I am trying to understand what you are saying … but you don’t know the people who have said these things, and they don’t know you, which makes such insults meaningless.
I have been called all sorts of things on these pages, most of which are completely irrelevant to any discussion in hand at the time … but it really is water off a duck’s back to me. If it was my family, friends, work colleagues or someone who actually KNOWS me, saying such things, then it would be a different story entirely, because that would genuinely reflect who I am … but not angry people posting on an opinions forum.
With the best will in the world, please don’t take such things to heart so - you cannot change the world, nor other people’s opinions.
Good changes in the world (stopping children dying of disease and starvation, preventing mass genocide from happening again, preventing abuse of all vulnerable people - children and the elderly, making sure that our neighbours are not depressed and lonely) happen because of positive ACTION… not because of inert empathy.
Feeling sad about suffering is all very well … but I prefer to DO what I can, where I can, rather than wearing my heart on my sleeve so that others can admire it.
Molly
July 11th, 2007 at 11:43 pm
“The unsubstantiated claims, the theories … all based on nothing but hearsay”. Very much like the abduction from the apartment theory then.
No, you are right, I don’t come to a forum to share the same opinion - I enjoy debating. But just as you cannot debate with people who all share the same opinion, you also cannot debate with people who allow emotion into an argument and take opposing views personally.
Be HONEST with yourself as well … you have allowed yourself to become highly emotionally involved with a story about people that you do not know. That in itself is not a healthy behaviour.
July 11th, 2007 at 7:38 pm
Emma, there is one particular poster who is using other peoples names, not clever as she /he is being deleted, keep checking back and you find the person has gone.
Anorak have not posted any opinion on here, and the poster concerned has nothing whatsoever to do with the site owner or Molly , marian , myself.
there are opinions which we are all entitled to have but putting words in the names of others is not free speech.
I have been pilloried by this user on so many occasions, but the user will go
July 11th, 2007 at 5:34 pm
No Emma - Please read that post again….I accused some of the McCann supporters of public ‘emotional masturbation’ …. by which I meant that some people seem to “get off” on trying to re-create someone else’s emotional pain for themselves, in a very attention seeking way, so that they can feel good about how ‘caring and compassionate’ they are and hope that others will see them in that way too.
If that is the post that you meant then I will willingly claim it as mine and not someone else posting in my name … which is not to say that all posts in the name of ‘Molly’ have been typed or conceived by myself… it is usually possible to tell which are which by the length of post and style of English used.