NOTES The Croydonian: “Here we go again: “Athens yesterday accepted as “a good basis for negotiations” five different composite names for the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (FYROM) proposed by the United Nations special mediator on the Macedonia name dispute during talks in Athens.”
Sources late yesterday revealed to Kathimerini four of the five proposed names: Democratic Republic of Macedonia, Constitutional Republic of Macedonia, Independent Republic of Macedonia and Republic of Upper Macedonia“.
I think I can do better:
The Not Even Remotely, Honestly not even a little bit, Hellenic Republic of Macedonia
What about Macedonia-under-Duress?
Posted: 20th, February 2008 | In: Politicians, Twitterings Comments (37) | Follow the Comments on our RSS feed: RSS 2.0 | TrackBack | Permalink
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March 29th, 2009 at 3:18 am
THIS PEOPLE ARE NOT MACEDONIANS> THEY ARE SLAVS> There is nothing distinct about Bulgarian Dialect. They are shame to be Slavs. The real Macedonian land is Greek not Slavic.
March 29th, 2009 at 3:09 am
I find it funny that the Slavs arrived in the Balkans in the 6th Century AD, and named them selves Macedonians. Why the call them selves Macedonians? Because they are ashamed of being Slavs. It is funny that all the Macedonian Archeological findings written in Ancient Greek, still the STOOGES SLAVS think My Makedonia is theirs. The EU is not proud of the FYOM because they are very Violent Country. I have visited one of their site and they say:”The USA Congradulate the FYOM for none violence election.” Were another of their site says: “Stabbing of Albanian Democrat Politicians, and abusing Albanian Ethnics.” They causing problems with Greece too. THE FYOM cannot handle their internal problems.
October 19th, 2008 at 1:12 pm
Macedonians tied to Antic Macedonians, Greeks to Celtic, Germanic, Slavic…
Today’s Macedonians are descendants of the Antic Macedonians, says research results from the Swiss Genealogy Institute iGENEA. For a second time an independent research institution confirms what Oxford and Madrid University confirmed a decade ago.
iGENEA is the most famous global Genealogy institute who once again frustrated the Greek government by confirming the direct connection between the Macedonians today and in Antic times.
The question came from a Greek citizen who asked iGENEA the following question: “What are the roots of today SlavMacedonians”.
The Institute responded: “Before all, they are Macedonians, not slavMacedonias as you referred to them for political reasons. The largest part of the Macedonians are direct descendants of the Antic Macedonians. Only a minor portion have a Slavic connection”.
iGENEA backed up their findings with hard numbers. However, tying the today’s Macedonians with Antic Macedonians is not the only disappointing information for Greece. According to iGENEA, only 32 percent of Greek citizens have Macedonian, Hellenic and even Arab origin. iGENEA further explains that 31 percent of Greek citizens have Celtic roots, 12 percent Germanic and Slavic origin, while 11% have Illyrian roots.
iGENEA also negated the Illyrians roots of the Albanians. In stark contrast to Albanian beliefs, IGENEA says the Albanians have the least Illyrian roots. Only 20 percent of the Albanians have Illyrian roots, while 40 percent of today’s Bosnians have Illyrian roots.
In the past several months, the iGENEA Genealogy Institute had been flooded with requests by Greek Citizens who, ironically, did not care for their own origin, but all questions were aimed at the Macedonians’ origin. iGENEA in its research uses DNK analysis, historical, archeological, and anthropological sources.
Scientific proof, real solid proof, un-manipulated and the simple truth, Macedonian of today have same gen that the original Cro-Magname of that region, that would mean that my ancestors lived at the cross roads between Neanderthals and Cro-Magnon Man (us) and that says that we proceed the Slav invasion and survived it!
Macedonians have been with in that same region FOR EVER! Since my gen’s proceeds the history books and science has proven that! I would think that me and mine people who are the real Macedonians have the right to be called and respected for who we really are Macedonians!
Out of respect for our history and our historical contribution to civilization, out of respect for our name which is the oldest in Europe, don’t make this harder than it is, our coulter and identity is being placed within a history book, closed and shelved and we are left with nothing a nobody people.
We the last standing Macedonians are fighting for what is rightfully ours by birthright and genetic imprint, this is our name, our history and our identity, and we the Macedonian people worldwide will never abandon it!
March 9th, 2008 at 7:45 pm
This is a good one from Komita:
“…all those forced out of aegean macedonia following the partition of 1913 will have the right to all the lands that were stripped from them…”
any reason why any forced out skopjians didn’t fight with the united forces of Bulgaria, Greece, Serbia, and Montenegro against the Ottoman armies in 1912 or with Bulgaria against greece+serbia in 1913? It was Bulgarians who spilled their blood against greeks, not skopjian-macedonians, and Bulgarians who signed the treaty in Buchurest in 1913.
the exhaustive survey of National Geographic issue of 1912 reports Bulgarians not macedonians. There was never such ethnicity in the modern balkans. Bulgaria fought for the integration of Macedonia into Bulgaria and lost the war…you come after 100 years to tell the world that you were forced out of your land and claim what’s yours? I ensure you that the only Bulgarian (and Greek I am sure) property you will be entitled to will require copious amounts of lubrication…you are real clowns…you have managed to irritate Bulgaria which is your motherland, Greece, and Albania and you think you have a future in modern europe outside Bulgaria
March 9th, 2008 at 1:27 am
Re Mihalis, don’t get too worked up over those boneheads…all this bitterness and hate they have seeded in the Balcans will only erupt into a quick resolution among Albania, Greece, and Bulgaria…Don’t forget we are the only ones who patiently negotiate with them over a name only…Bulgaria and Albania just wait for the right moment to get a piece of their pie…Kossovo has already started to dipsute The Macedonian Empire’s borders…Why do you think they are rushing into NATO and starve their people so they can publish multi-million campaigns in international newspapers? Can you imagine Albania in and Skopjians out? I am sure Soros, Dectas and the Norwegians will come to their aid again. I just hope they will always dream of reuniting Macedonia all the way to India while in the mean time a pragmatic Balcan resolution will rid us of this modern macedonian abomination.
rel:dr:04.04
March 9th, 2008 at 1:04 am
How about (SBR) Soro’s Banana Republic ? Vasko Macedonian and all proud SBR loyals, I hope the day you will liberate us from our Athenian retards is not too far…we are more sick of them than you are. Unless the Albanians skin you alive or the Bulgarians convince you that you are not ancient immortals (is there ANYONE in the neighboorhood that takes you seriously?) I really don’t have much hope for the Athenian traitors who finance your penny salaries with our own taxes.
rel:dr:04.01
March 3rd, 2008 at 7:06 am
The Republic of New Macedonia
You guys should be thankful you are only fighting over a name…
March 1st, 2008 at 9:06 pm
In that way in the short form the inhabitants of the Republic of Macedonia will continue to call themselves Macedonians and their country Macedonia without irritating the Greeks as on all the formal documents there will be in use the formal descriptions ie Slav Macedonians and Slav Republic of Macedonia-Skopje (to be shorted oficially as Slav Macedonia - this short term to be included in the constitution as well, being the formal short version of the name ).
March 1st, 2008 at 8:55 pm
I think a good solution would be:
Slav Republic of Macedonia-Skopje
ethnicity : Slav Macedonians
language : Slav Macedonian
In that way the term Republic of Macedonia do appear in the name along with a distict ethnic (Slav) and geographical (-Skopje) quotations.
February 28th, 2008 at 1:14 pm
You people, are trying to convince the world that your are “Macedons”. Well you are NOT. There is no such ethnicity. Your “country” is a mixture of Slavs, Albanians, Turks, Bulgarians, Greeks and other minorities (disagree on that?). Thus the ethnic identity of “Macedons” has been given to this molten pot by Tito, to keep this hotchpotch bound by a common “ethnic feeling”, avoiding autonomistic trends. He could easily pick another name for this part of Yugoslavia, just as “Vardarska” for example. But hidden before the security of the communistic isolation, he snatched a name available by the neighbor’s history. And don’t say that you have maps or other documents referring to “Macedonia” because I can show you maps (not Greek ones) that say “Vardarska”. Unfortunately, there is no way to help you understand this. This is the same as to convince a stone wall to move backwards.
For the rest of the guys, considering themselves as thinking people, PLEASE read the books. They are all around you. Read and see for yourself. Don’t take the food the media trying to feed you.
DON’T GIVE SKOPJE THE CHANCE TO RAISE ANY TERRITORIAL CLAIMS – THE NAME IS JUST THE VEHICLE (SEE THE MAPS OF “GREAT MACEDONIA” THEY ARE PROMOTING HERE AND THERE).
February 27th, 2008 at 3:34 am
THERE IS ONLY 1 NAME WE HAVE AND NO ONE CAN CHANGE THAT….
NASETO IME JE MAKEDONIJA I NIKOJ NEMOZE DA GO SMENI TO……
February 26th, 2008 at 6:23 am
Keep on dreaming Vasko. Sleep does wonders for the skin.
February 26th, 2008 at 2:52 am
Hey,listen
How about Free Macedonians or maybe Great Macedonia or United Macedonia?
All fanatics from Athens(not Greece cause their country is just Athens) in a few years you all gonna live again in your litle Kingdom of Athens cause in half of “your country” lives pure Macedonians who also live for their freedom from you.That day will soon come
Long live Macedonian Empire and United Macedonians
dr:26.02:04.21
February 24th, 2008 at 11:50 am
I don’t know why you are so blind at least to the fact that there will be no mutual agreement on this issue. The matter is closed, you slavs have managed to steal the name, the world does not want to be bothered any more, and, as your fellow theiving Ms. Kate in her post No12 says “there’s much more evil things in the world to worry about than this.” To make clear, has statement is to the effect that ” OK, a bit of evil theiving was done, but worst things in the world are happenning so lets not concentrate on minor evils, lets move on”
Let me spell out for you what will happen from know on.
1) An agreement will not be reached. This is due to your arrogance, since now that you are on a winning streak you think you can have it all. Lock, stock and barrel as the saying goes.
2) Your entrance to NATO, EU etc will be vetoed. You can bet your arse on that. What you seem to be forgetting, maybe because it suits you, is that NATO is an alliance, and there is no way you could be considered our allies. The alternative, is that Greece gets kicked out of NATO by the allies and then you are asked to join in our place. Not a likely scenario, but keep working on it, afterall you pulled off more difficult cons.
3) You are in for some very hard years ahead afterwards.
4) I cannot see to far into the future, but things do not look very stable for your situation. I will not risk to guess, but I can see problems arrising from your Western borders. But then again the East, North and finally South are not that secure either. Don’t forget that “Papa retard Bush” will not always be around. The US is bound to wake up and start rectifying mistakes or maybe even “allowing” them to be rectified. You know all this. It is not something new that I am saying. You feel it in your gut. For your sake I hope you have an ace up your sleeve, otherwise, I would recommend you stock up on a lot of vaseline.
February 23rd, 2008 at 12:26 am
United Macedonia is the best name i think
February 22nd, 2008 at 5:35 am
How do you justify another country making decisions for another? Macedonian will always be Macedonia to us and the rest of the world. Besides DNA traces the Greek ancestory originating from Turkey.
dr:22.02:05.44
February 22nd, 2008 at 3:03 am
Macedonas, I don’t know where you learned your history, but the Balkan Wars were fought in 1912-1913, for the “liberation” of Macedonia, which was a political and geographic area of the ottoman empire. Consequently the Bulgarian, Serb and Greek armies illegally partitioned Macedonia among themselves so I don’t understand what the Macedonians “grabbed”. History shows occupying armies grabbed Macedonia.
Geo, there was a Macedonian state during the reign of Csar Somail of Ohrid at the turn of the first century, that was a slav empire the controlled the region of Macedonia(except Solanika) as well as most of Bulgaria, Serbia, Thessely, and Thrace.
Furthermore, that are have been several periods prior to 1913 when Greece was repopulated with “Greeks”. After the Byzantines regained mainland Greece in the 8th century, that had to repopulate it with Greek speaking people because the language primarly spoken was Slav.
As for Alexander the Greats “mother tongue” it is well know that there was a seperate Macdedonian language during ancient times, this is one of many reasons that the ancient greeks did not consider Alexander or Macedonia as greek, but rather as a barbarian kingdom. The ancient Macedonian language was not a written one and therefore alexander would have been taught to read in greek which was the primary language of the time. The same way many people around the world presently learn english because it is the language of the international community. Why would Philip the II have to have gone to Greece for a greek education and why would alexander need a tutor from greece in the greek language was spoken in Macedonia.
And maybe someone can explain to me why the “Macedonian” provinces of greece were only named that in 1989, if the greeks had such a strong feeling of a macedonian identitiy why did they wait until the evident collapse of yugoslavia to name there macedonian provinces by their ancient names.
Furthermore, Macedonia from the ancient period to the present day has always been a geographic or political region. The ancient macedonian kingdom, a province under rome and byzantium, and region under the ottoman turks. show me a map before 1831 that shows greece or hellas, because I have never come across such a thing. Furthermore, those people have always identified themselves as macedonians, no matter where they originated from, they were born in macedonia and there was a macedonian identity. It if for this reason that we have a right to be call ourselves Macedonians. Were are from macedonia, and there have been macedonians for over 3000 years. Obviously populations mix and were are not direct descendents of the ancient macedonians but macedonia was always a region and therefore there have always been macedonians. Macedonia is the longest continously region in Europe and there will always be a Macedonia.
This uproar about the name if proof that the greeks fear macedonia. Why would a rich advanced country like greece fear a country like macedonia, struggling to develop, with a standing army of 6000. Because they know they cant hide history and once macedonia is recognized and admitted into the eu and nato all those forced out of aegean macedonia following the partition of 1913 will have the right to all the lands that were stripped from them. Greece fears macedonia and they are stooping to pathetic levels to try to keep land that it gave to its citizens illegally.
dr:22.02:05.09
February 22nd, 2008 at 1:54 am
What good has come from the break up of Yugoslavia? Very little. The area should reunify as a diverse nation and Americans should be encourgaging our real way of life, this is lving in a diverse society not a bunch of tribes. Using a name that is in use by a boardering country is madness and stupid regardless of history. The US has New Mexico, we don’t call it Mexico and we have settled that New Mexico is ours and is not part of Mexico. Why are the FYROM folks being so hard headed? Why should Kosovo be separate? To cater to what is truly a minority in the big scheme of things? In reality if you are a big country you can do things on an economy of scale that is much more economical. If I am wrong, then why is everyone rushing to join NATO and the European Union? Put the emotions aside and think about it for a minute.
dr:22.02:05.11
February 21st, 2008 at 9:15 pm
I do recognise that we now live in a world where anything goes, all you have to do is GRAB and call it yours. Truth is nobody gives a damn unless of course someone is grabing at something that is YOURS.
So, we have come to the end of the road. The theiving slavs have “grabed” and a big chunk of the world does not want to know anything about it.
“Victory” is theirs.
We should have nothing to do with them. Just close our borders and let the stinking bastards rot in hell. End of conflict.
February 21st, 2008 at 4:07 pm
I guess this matters a lot to the Greeks and Macedonians.
How about ‘New Macedonia’?
February 21st, 2008 at 11:10 am
Macedonia: Land of Legend Land of Glory but NEVER Greek!
February 21st, 2008 at 6:53 am
Steve, you forgot to point out a very obvious fact, that most of southern Greece, Peloponess that is, was also ravaged by slavic settlers in the 6th, 7th centuries, these people later mixed with the greeks. Another interesting fact… 100years ago peloponess was half albanian populated.. many of these albanians were hellenised.. add this to the slav-greek mix in southern greece prior to this.. and we can see how “pure” “ancient” Greece and the ‘greeks’ really are… and dont even get me started on the “greeks” of aromanian descent, who live in central greece and are estimated to number atleast one million.
So i think we can conclude that a pure ancient nation does not exist. So who has the right to call themself Macedonian? anyone who feels macedonian and lives on or originates from the territory of Geographical Macedonia.
P.S: Macedonians dont have a problem with Greeks Worshiping Alexander the Great, however it is the Greeks who have a problem with Modern Macedonians worshiping him. Greece has to learn that it cannot have exclusive rights over Macedonia’s history and recognise that a few million people consider themselves Macedonians, nether greeks, bulgarians or slavs, but solely- Macedonians. This is reality whether somebody likes it or not.
February 21st, 2008 at 6:45 am
Kate, you think that way because you’re a political midget.
dr:21.02:06.53
February 21st, 2008 at 6:43 am
I’d also like to point out that Steve is a nationalist douchebag. You got the population swap wrong. The Greeks did not exchange Greek and Turkish Muslims for Turkish Christians. The vast majority of those brought to Greece were Greeks from Pontos, Izmir and the rest of Anatolia. The denial of millions of Greeks living in Anatolia is complete bias. The Slavs from FYROM would have you believe that Greeks cannot be Macedonian either because of this huge population swap. I say it makes the argument even more potent for the Greek side as the heirs of Alexander’s Empire were his generals that created there own respective kingdoms that continued the traditions of Hellenism, making these people of Anatolia who were already Greeks more Macedonian than the Slav raiders of the 6th century could ever hope to be.
The funny thing with the Slavs is that there is no dispute from where and when the Slavs came to the region. The funny part comes that mixing means absolutely nothing because the culture had already changed from the ancient period, the Greek language had been modified from its ancient form and the religion has changed. So an invader trying to draw ties to an ancient people who he claims he has “mixed” with is the same as the Ottoman Empire proclaiming that it’s the continuation of the Roman Empire, which is not true.
PS Show me this language that the Macedonians used which was different than Greek. Prove to me that Alexander’s mother tongue was not Greek. The fact that we know beyond a doubt that he indeed spoke Greek is an indicator because he was taught by your truly, Aristotle. Another Greek.
dr:21.02:06.48
February 21st, 2008 at 6:28 am
Mirjana, I fail to see your point because you fail to make it. There has never been a Macedonian state just like the argument that is used by your supporters that Greece did not exist until 1821. Macedonia has been a region for the longest time. It was a Kingdom in the ancient world, a province of Rome and the Ottomans up until 1913. So again I fail to see at any point in time when the Slavs controlled Greek Macedonia fully and created a state. Also, you cannot deny that when the Greek army entered Greek Macedonia during the First Balkan War that they did so as liberators and not conquerers because first, they drove out the Turks and secondly Greeks lived their as they always have. Undeniable. Another fact that is a something to consider is that the Bulgarians were trying to take Greek Macedonia. How could they possibly accomplish that without BULGARIANS living there? You see they were Bulgarian Slavs and not ethnic Macedonians. Unless you make the bogus claim that all Bulgarians today are Macedonians then I suggest you’re full of it in all your claims.
PS The Bulgarians started the Second Balkan War because they wanted a piece of Greek Macedonia so bad, but everyone else was against them.
PSS No mention of any Macedonians during any wars in this period.
dr:21.02:06.47
February 21st, 2008 at 5:04 am
blah blah blah blah.
the battle is lost. the general public doesn’t care for acronyms and formal names. they’re just going to call it Macedonia anyway and the only country with a stick remaining up their arses about it is Greece. time to wake up and move on, people. there’s much more evil things in the world to worry about than this.
dr:21.02:05.30
February 21st, 2008 at 5:01 am
No modern country in Europe can claim that all their citizens are pure descendants of the ancient people living there previously 2000 years ago, that is just plain ridiculous. There have been population swaps, movements, invasions, wars etc. But in saying that people must have some sort of connection to the ancients otherwise where else would they come from?
In regards to the Macedonians, no sensible, or straight thinking ethnic Macedonian is going to claim direct lineage to Alexander but surely their has to be traces of ancient Macedonian blood in the Modern Macedonians otherwise it just doesn’t make sense. If the Slavs did arrive in the sixth or seventh centuries like most Greeks never forget to remind you, then what happened to the ancient Macedonians, did they just disappear into thin air. Did the entire population just say ‘Oh, the Slavs are coming, lets all just runaway and vacate the entire area and leave it to them’. Come on, we know thats a load of crap. Over time whether it was voluntary or forced, the Slavs mixed in with the ancient Macedonians and the Modern Macedonians are a product of that and other invaders that have ravaged that part of the Balkans for many milennia.
The Modern Greeks wont tell you this but if you dig under surface you will find out that there have been massive population swaps of hundreds of thousands of people between Turkey and Greece where in the early 1900’s the Greeks swapped Muslim Greeks and Turks who were a product of the Ottoman Empire for Christian Turks from Turkey many of whom did not even a know word of Greek but who were more importantly for the Greek state, Christian. Mix this with the forced Hellenization of hundreds of thousands of ethnic Macedonians, Albanians, Vlachs etc in the newly occupied territories of that time and today you have many of these people accounting for a very substantial proportion the ‘Greek’ population, Yet miraculously these people are all pure hellenes related to Socrates. Most of these new ‘Greeks’ were settled in the newly occupied ‘province’ of Macedonia in Greece less than 90 years ago in order to ‘address’ the ethnic character of that region which was overwhelmingly in favour of the ethnic Macedonians. Today many of these new ‘Greeks’ who settled their from Turkey are now the pure ‘Greek Macedonians’ that are all Alexander’s cousins. Come on, give me a break.
If the Greeks can claim they are direct descendants of the ancient Greeks even with all thats been mentioned above and if a Christian Turk who settled in Macedonia less than 90 years ago can claim that he or she is related to the ancient Macedonians then surely the Modern Macedonians who have lived in that part of the world for god knows how long and know no other name for themselves, they surely have the right to call themselves Macedonian.
dr:21.02:05.31
February 21st, 2008 at 3:29 am
It’s funny how Mirjana states that no one should try to change history, when it is clear that the people of FYROM are the ones that have been trying to change history to their convenience. It’s also funny how there history has changed numerous times since the early 90’s. Their own president claimed that they are Slavs that inhabited that territory around 6 BC and have no association with ancient Macedonia and Alexander the Great.
Realizing eventually that this statement does not support their claim to be identified as Macedonian, they changed their story and are now direct descendants of the ancient Macedonians.
February 21st, 2008 at 2:03 am
What I find funny the most is how FYROM claim to be of Ancient Macedonia origin when they themselfs are a slavic tribe originated from Bulgaria. The Ancient Macedonian are from a Greek Tribe. they speak greek, worship greek gods and claim to be greek. Read your history books before complaining about Greece.
February 20th, 2008 at 6:04 pm
Well it is just to make the greek happy.
But it is too late now, everybody call them Macedonia and that would not change.
dr:20.02:18.45
February 20th, 2008 at 6:02 pm
I find it funny that Greece claims that the name Macedonia is a province in Northern Greece, but the only truth in that is the fact that it was really Macedonia until it was divided in 1913. So that whole area is Macedonian and has nothing to do with Greece. So my question is, how do you claim a territory that has been in your control for less than 100 years opposed to it bring some one else’s territory for thousands of years. Macedonia is Macedonia and no one should try and change history or give other countries different names.
dr:20.02:18.44