Anorak Forums » Backlash

1. bill
   Member

   I remember the mass hysteria surrounding Diana’s death, the public weeping, the laying of flowers and I was appalled by it.

   What, now I find appalling, is the suggestion that the same thing is happening in the case of Madeleine McCann. I see very little evidence of it other than the ramblings on the telly and in the papers (mass-media to the ‘Hip’.)

   Isolated cases in which concerned people try to set up stalls to raise money for the Madeleine Fund or, more recently where someone has driven to Portugal with a massive billboard have been picked up by the press and then subjected to sniggering comments on the futility of it all by - Anorak, no less.

   Anorak’s suggestion that people who do these things are just trying to show the world ‘how much they care’ is offensive. I have children of my own. And the thought of losing one...!

   So, living in Morocco (scene of a sighting), I have posters in my car. Not to show people how much I care, but on the million to one chance it might help to find the poor little bugger.

   Other people who do similar things, are doing them for the same reason.

   Anorak, sorry, but in my opinion you’ve got your head stuck up your arse on this one!

   Posted 2 years ago #

2. Anonymous
   Unregistered

   On the tv news over the weekend 1200 other children have gone missing since Maddy went, there have been news reports about 2 of them in slight detail, but no pictures of them.

   People could pass these children and their abductors, and not see things for what they are.

   There is something seriously wrong that a) children are taken and b)only 3 are mentioned, for goodness sake what about the other 1197 , don't they matter?

   Posted 2 years ago #

3. Gander
   Member

   aahh...but, are the 2394 parents middle-of-the-road Brits, look contrite, distraught and photogenic?

   Posted 2 years ago #

4. bill
   Member

   So, let's drop the whole bloody thing, is that what you're saying?

   Posted 2 years ago #

5. Gander
   Member

   No. I suggest you check the calendar and strike off the days since this child's abduction.
   What do you suggest?
   Papal Audience? Pope demands the girl's abductors hand her over?
   The odds for success are about the same as finding her alive and well under a poster in the shifting sands. The cruel fact is this vast exposure and publicity has put Madeleine's life at considerably more risk.
   The only hope for survival would be if the girl has been taken by a grieving or would be mother.
   You do what you can. I will hope.

   Posted 2 years ago #

6. bill
   Member

   Gander,

   You want to wait for my suggestions. You want me to do what I can. In the meantime you will HOPE!!! and no doubt avidly follow press stories whilst shaking your head in dismay...

   Posted 2 years ago #

7. Gander
   Member

   In despair... you bad-tempered punk. I help sweep this scum off the sidewalk. You carry on solo Bill Stickers.
   Jeez! I see why you need to recruit.

   Posted 2 years ago #

8. bill
   Member

   Punk - Scum - Sidewalk - Jeez? Have a nice day y'all.

   G'night, John-boy

   Posted 2 years ago #

9. Gander
   Member

   Yes. Blind, ignorant trash.

   Posted 2 years ago #

10. agw
    Administrator

    Gander:
    Please read or re-read 'Code of conduct for this community'.
    Valid comment is welcome. Gratuitous and unnecessary abuse is not. Loss of temper leads to lost argument.

    Posted 2 years ago #

11. Anonymous
    Unregistered

    Perhaps Madeleine's family and well wishers might use some of the vast funds of money raised as 'reward' to help set up a scheme so that ALL children who are 'taken' whether they have pretty parents or not,or do at least stand a chance of being noticed that they are gone.
    This is no way will detract or distract from the truly photogenic being out there in front.(if that is an important proviso)
    But lets be honest isn't it the children who matter, and they don't stand a cat in hells chance of being found if it isn't even brought to peoples attention that they are abducted.

    Granted bill where you are in Morocco it makes sense for you to carry Maddy's picture on your car, but nearer to the UK or even in it local areas could have local children who are missing on their vehicles.

    Perhaps the parents of other children are just less able to voice their loss, but no one is listening anyway, but perhaps their anguish is just as great

    Posted 2 years ago #

12. Gander
    Member

    What? You going to cut me out?

    Posted 2 years ago #

13. bill
    Member

    A.G.W. If Gander lost his temper, it was in response to my sarcasm and I apologise to him for that. So Gander, let's bury the hatchet. O.K?

    Posted 2 years ago #

14. agw
    Administrator

    Gander:
    You've done nothing to deserve that but I also know you've been around the site long enough to know how it works.
    Be as far out and as controversial as you like.
    Have arguments, shout, scream, pull hair. You don't have to play nicely here.
    Just do not libel or insult others unnecessarily.
    However, I don't think this topic heading is the place for a guerrilla war.

    Posted 2 years ago #

15. bill
    Member

    Yes, excellent idea June.

    Out of all the anguish, maybe some good will come of this affair. I didn't know that 1,200 children have gone missing since Madeleine's abduction, and I suspect a lot of other people didn't.

    But this case has highlighted other children's plight and made them less easy to ignore. Who knows the full impact this case will have on others in a similar situation in the future.

    Posted 2 years ago #

16. Gander
    Member

    Ok, accepted AGW. Bill I apologize. The only thing I can do here is hope.

    Posted 2 years ago #

17. bill
    Member

    Thanks Gander.

    All we can do, at the end of the day, is hope.

    Posted 2 years ago #

18. BobGreen
    Member

    This subject seemed to go off beam a bit in some personal stuff but I think it needs airing a bit more.

    Today the headlines are that the grieving parents are briefly meeting the Pope.

    Whatever my atheist views on that may be it is nevertheless very good publicity and will keep the media focus and spotlight on the case.

    These intelligent professional parents , with resources , lots of skill and their Catholic connections , are doing what they can to keep the story in the papers. They are doing an excellent job and should be applauded for apparently doing all they can to try to trace their daughter.

    I am sure each of us would try to do so if placed in a similar sad situation and with the resources and skills to do so.

    But as June points out there have apparently been large numbers of children who have gone missing in the interim and barely a word about them.

    Whilst the circumstances of the McCann case may be exceptional , the parents of each and every one of those other missing children might also deserve our equal sympathy and help to find them. Very many of those children might also be suffering or in danger.

    The media focus on this one case leaves the impression that a photogenic child of resourceful professional parents , through money , connections and skill , is worth more of our attention (and the Pope's) than others in similar need. That surely can't be right.

    I wonder (as was briefly mentioned by a columnist in the ST at the weekend) what would have been the situation if a chav couple from a council estate had left 3 tots alone whilst they popped down the pub with their friends for an hour and one had gone missing?

    How would that have been reported and how would the parents have been treated then?

    Posted 2 years ago #

19. otherwize
    Member

    I'd like to add another, Mediterranean, perspective to the argument. First of all the campaign is bringing the issue of child abuse and abduction into the public arena in Catholic and Orthodox countries at least where awareness is low - and not because it isn't relevant either. Parents of previously abducted children, whilst rueful that they didn't get this kind of coverage are in fact grateful to the MCCanns because they are rattling the cage. Of course all of this is going to spin off for other children.
    On the issue of the Pope I am a natal but now non-communicant Catholic (ie can't confess and repent in order to take Communion because I don't agree with the rules, policies, mythology etc of the Church but would still like to take Communion if I could - there are many in my position but that's another debate for another time). I have to admit I groaned a bit loudly when I saw the Pope Show go on the road on this issue. Many dissident Catholics like me find the media adulation of the Pope hilarious. A very elderly Benedictine monk emailed me his own epitaph on John Paul at the time of the mindless tabloid sanctification of the late JP who did nothing useful for any of the worlds oppressed peoples. It ran: "The Higher the Monkey he climb, The better you can see he arsehole."
    Anyway we are waiting to see if there are any signs of connected earthly life in Benedict and this is an interesting development - though it is not that easy to see how his action will pan out. One thing is for sure though, this audience will have a huge impact in Catholic countries. There may be just one person on whom it will have a particularly strong impact and that is the wife, mother or other relative or friend of the person who has done this. What I am hoping for very fervently from Benedict today is an "It is not too late for redemption" message which might just get someone to act on what they know. It is also just possibly the start of a brave move on B16's part to start to address the issue paedophilia in a modern context and use his considerable intellect to try and bridge the gap between the church's teachings on sin and the possibility of forgiveness and modern sciences (limited) understanding of sexual pathology.
    From the McCanns point of view, if Madeleine or her abductor is in a Catholic country they can't do better than this and I sincerely hope that their prayers are answered.
    Setting aside all the ribaldry and cynicism because of scandals associated with the church there is a role that priests can play because of their vows of confidentiality. A thing that has bugged me for a long time is this question: If a young man finds himself attracted to children presumably in the vast majority of cases it is not a happy discovery and many must try to suppress it. What is freaky to me is that in the prevailing climate of witch hunt, hatred and fear there is simply no place for a man like this to go to help him learn to control himself. The church hs given advice in the past but it was quite simply bad and wrong and possibly conducive to future disastrous break-out. (this is a problem with all churches not Catholics -- Alcoholics Anonymous lose more recoverers to religious nuts who convince people that what they need is not constant endeavour but Jesus (or insert other deity)). IF (and it is a very big IF) Benedict can begin to extract the church from it's entrenched ostrich position on sexuality in general then there is great potential for the good they could do in Catholic communities. For this I will be watching his words with interest but I am not optimistic.

    Posted 2 years ago #

20. admin
    Key Master

    Otherwize - I'm going to put your post on the main site. At last the debate is on paedophilia. This is where the debate needs to turn. thanks. Keep the debate going...

    Posted 2 years ago #

21. otherwize
    Member

    Oh great (blushing) I've been trying to get that point of view heard unsuccessfully for years. Am now going to run away and hide from the ensuing battering I'll get for it.

    Posted 2 years ago #

22. agw
    Administrator

    Stay right where you are. That was one of the most refreshing and thought-provoking pieces I have read in recent weeks. I would have been proud to write it, as a non-Catholic I'm not qualified to do so. Well done.

    Posted 2 years ago #

23. Anonymous
    Unregistered

    I just hope that Benedict doesn't give the usual advice to Catholic women:go and have another baby!
    But doesn't anyone think/ agree /have an opinion on the confidentiality of the confessional?
    And given RC's clergy's views on sexual needs and it availablity from women, aren't children even less important than RC man and his 'needs' no matter how perverse?

    Posted 2 years ago #

24. Randie-By-Name
    Member

    Perhaps because the McCann's are Catholic they may find some solace from a meeting with the Catholic Church's Representative of God on Earth? If that is the result, then hopefully it wasn't a wasted journey. And perhaps if their little girl was abducted by a repentant Catholic, a word from the Pope will be incentive enough to return her to her family.

    I have to say though, if there was any possibility that a child of mine had been abducted by a paedophile, I don't know how much comfort I could take from the man who as Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, was responsible for enforcing the procedure for dealing with child sex abuse scandals within the Catholic Church. Panorama did a documentary on sex abuse within the Church and if memory serves me correctly, their focus on the paper "Crimen Sollicitationis" caused a huge storm from the Vatican.

    However, like AGW, I am not Catholic and so I should probably not go where angels fear to tread.

    Posted 2 years ago #

25. otherwize
    Member

    Looks like I had better gird my loins....
    June, let me clear here in this nice quiet little forum at least. I hold absolutely no brief at all for Church dogma and disagree with virtually all of it. I am also not one of those Catholics who continues to go to Church and take communion conveniently overlooking the things I disagree with just for comfort as has been recommended to me in the past. A few years ago though I realised I was more or less still some form of Roman Catholic. It was probably the Dalai Lama that convinced me - he said something like "Don't try and change your religion, it will only do your head in." In fact I am probably a Blakean Christian (William Blake)
    ("He who dwells in Flaming Fire is really the Christ etc") and something of a pagan to boot but God help me I am not about to try and explicate that stance here tonight and don't wish much to discuss my personal faith here. But I have become aware there are many like me rooting more and more for change in the Church (many much more actively and courageously than me) not just on women and contraception but on homosexuality as well. The wrongheadedness of the doctrine (not obviously just in the RC Church)and its failure to address the real issues of sexuality are I think instrumental in holding back the necessary jump in addressing the pathology of paedophiles. I believe there will be more and more Madeleine's if we do not get over ourselves and start opening up some kind of real, scientific debate that attempts to lift the issue away from the hysteria towards something actually getting learnt and done. These people exist, they are sick possibly but there is no hope that we will ever prevent them from doing horrible things if we don't get real about it. Because even those who claim to hate religions still bang on in terms of Good and Evil and Punishment. Because their basic framework has been formed by religion we are not going to get anything better than dyslexic vigilantes attacking the homes of paediatricians as occurred when SArah Payne was missing. I don't know how prepared or qualified I am to fight my corner here, or if it is appropriate. But I do believe, like the Dalai Lama, that the two key issues above and beyond all are Truth and Compassion. No matter what a person's accepted mythology those two things are good to live by. Compassion is a particularly interesting one but not very well understood I fear. Using that word in this context will probably just lead to me being accused of wanting to mollycoddle child rapists or something. FAce to face with someone attempting to hurt a child I know for sure I would be capable of tearing his/her flesh from the bone with my bare hands but that is not the same thing as believing that society should be striving towards better solutions. I want to know

    - Not speculate -, and I think we all should, what is the nature of this mental disease and what can be done to stop the harm it does. For that we need to find a way for people who actually experience sexual compulsions (I do not regard simple homosexuality as a compulsion - I am talking about fetishistic sexual urges) to be enabled to help in this quest for an answer. Tabloid Culture and Church intransigence combine to prevent that happening and are both to blame for the fate of Madeleine, Sarah and many many others. For that I am grateful that the McCanns have taken this to Rome. As Catholics that is exactly where they should be able to take it.
    As a woman, a single mum of unconventional background and unconventional views and path I would also say that in recent years I have found that some of those who you would least expect within the Church are the most vehement and committed to giving me the kind of "Go Girl Go" encouragement and loving support that is sadly lacking in general life. So the answer to your question is No. The loudest voices in the Church as in all areas of life are not always the true voices.
    Mostly, right now, I am thinking: What the hell have I done here!!!

    Posted 2 years ago #

26. otherwize
    Member

    You are right about Ratzinger Randie but there IS pressure on him. I don't see too many encouraging signs though. I don't let go of the hope. Galileo was excommunicated for his science. And they had to change their mind. It's the inside universe they have to accept now.

    Posted 2 years ago #

27. Anonymous
    Unregistered

    I had to come out of retirement to welcome Otherwize The Blakean Christian to the forum. As a Blakean Jew i say shalom to you. Blake loved & learned Kabbalah , do you?
    I offer part of a Blake poem as an offering of respect
    "every honest man is a prophet; he who uttershisopinion both of private& public matters.Thus if you go on so, the result is so. "
    William Blake is a hero. I live & learn

    Posted 2 years ago #

28. Anonymous
    Unregistered

    ....salaam chabib

    Posted 2 years ago #

29. Anonymous
    Unregistered

    ...as Bill would say

    Posted 2 years ago #

30. bill
    Member

    You're a man of steel, Billy.

    Two days of self-inflicted silence, and you're back, on a religious subject.

    Posted 2 years ago #

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