Madeleine McCann: Is This Relevant?
THERE has been no little talk on the Anorak Forums and comment pages about Madeleine McCann - about 4,000 posts.
And not all of it has been supportive of the parents. Some voices accuse Madeleine’s parents of not taking proper care when they left their children alone in the holiday apartment while they went out with friends.
My view is that it mattered but not much. If Madeleine was stolen - as it appears - the criminal only needed a moment to act. And if not her then some other child.
Erin in Madeleine McCann: Face To Face With Robert Murat thinks this is “interesting”. Do you?
(Jacksonville, FL) — The mother of four young children pleaded guilty yesterday to child neglect charges. Police say she left her kids ages eight-months to five-years-old alone for at least three hours in her westside apartment last month. A judge sentenced 28-year-old Wynette Smith to the 22 days she’s served in jail since her arrest plus two years of probation. Police responded on June 21st to a tip from the management of Smith’s Collins Road apartment complex. The children remain in state custody. Smith’s boyfriend, 33-year-old Shakir Muhammad, remains in jail on 100-thousand-dollars bond facing the same charges.
Posted: 13th, July 2007 | In: Madeleine McCann Comments (145) | Follow the Comments on our RSS feed: RSS 2.0 | TrackBack | Permalink
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August 16th, 2007 at 11:28 pm
I just listened again to the interviews with the McCanns - you know something - I really do think - and I have not thought this for some time now- that Madeleine is alive and well and in the UK. I really did think during the first couple of weeks that this whole thing was a money making scam and that Madeleine was well on her way back to the UK long before she was reported missing - to be kept safely here in the UK until enough funds had been raised and it was time to call it a day and “discover” her. I even thought of the senario of a Murat/McCann Scam letting my mind run riot and thinking that with border checks in Europe so lax Madeleine could have got through on Murats daughters passport. Then when it all went on for so long - I, like many others, still couldnt grasp the abduction theory but went through the motions of thinking that she was probably not ever going to be found. NOW - with the sudden change of atmosphere towards the McCanns by the police and the uncomfortable questions and accusations they have suggested that they will soon be back in the UK. 100 days without your kid would be for anyone devastating - but with a few quid to back you up the blow would be softened. I think that the fund has probably by now reached its maximum potential, so there is no need to stay on in Portugal to promote that, the police has stated that they do not consider the McCanns suspects, so presumably they are now free to go home, so if as some reports suggest that Madeleine was taken by suspects seen with a car with a UK reg. then there is every hope that she is in the UK. Maybe when the McCanns get back here they will get a ransom demand - I hope so
August 16th, 2007 at 10:31 pm
Sorry Churchrat - just made an assumption from your name. As a fellow atheist, I can see it’s very annoying to be banned from a forum because you won’t accept that praying does any good - and certainly it doesn’t.
Nothing to do with poor Madeleine, but you may be interested in a website called Why Does God Hate Amputees - the section on praying. And stop worrying about the rest of us - there’s enough of us normal people out here to see your children to a happy and secure future, without you needing to believe that humans are bad.
August 16th, 2007 at 8:59 pm
Thank you, saddened. I will strongly consider your advice. (BTW, I’m not religious. I do not believe in any god. : )
I agree, Alice, absolutely.
Bravo, Julie RSA. Excellent post. I’ve taken some serious bashing also. I have been banned from a certain forum which refuses to accept reality and constantly begs a god for help with Madeleine.
On we go… I hope it ends soon.
August 16th, 2007 at 5:23 pm
As you can see from previous postings of mine, I’m pretty much in agreement that Madeleine is no longer with us.
There is at least ONE (if not more) person who knows exactly what happened to Madeleine, and one day their conscience will get the better of them.
I am also of the opinion that the abduction scenario is far fetched, and continue to maintain that if it was an abduction, the perpetrator would have taken the younger female child for numerous reasons! In my mind, the ruling-out of the abduction scenario leaves few obvious options that could have happened! And I shall leave it at that.
I am also going to repeat what I have said with regard to my feelings towards the McCann’s (I’ve been bashed about this quite a few times already, but quite frankly, I don’t give a hoot, this is my personal opinion and I stick to it). I cannot bring myself to feel even a tiny little bit sorry for them for what they are going through. Their actions caused the cirumstances.
All I can pray for is that Madeleine’s story will not go unresolved, and that the little one did not suffer. Someone has to pay for what happened to this defenceless little girl.
August 16th, 2007 at 2:15 pm
Of course the main objective is to “capaign to stop this happening again” BUT if nobody knows WHAT happened then how can the campaign stop it happening again. I suppose that if any good has come out of it all so far it is to raise the awareness of abduction. I am still of the opinion that I was on day one of this and that is that Madeleine was not abducted. If Madeine was not abducted then maybe when the true facts are known the campaign can shift to making an awareness of what really did happen to her and warning parents of the possibilities of other ways that children can come to harm, apart from abduction which has always been a scary thought in the minds of responsible parents. - I agree that child snatching needs to be addressed - but leaving a wide open situation for abductors to prey on small kids in not a common situation and never will be - most parents - no matter how naive in the art of parenting - would think carefully about leaving young children - almost with a label attached saying “here I am, home alone again - take me” This is exactly what the McCanns did as it was not, by their own admission, a “one Off” - they had done exactly the same thing on previous nights..
August 16th, 2007 at 11:54 am
No, don’t do this, Churchrat. Whatever your personal fears for your children, you really don’t want them to grow up to be ‘anti-social and introspective’. Nobody can enjoy their (very brief) time on earth under such circumstances. Religious ideas are ludicrous. Let them go … give them freedom and responsibility for their own lives. As parents we owe them that - protect them whilst they are very young, and then embark on a program to gradually give them whatever skills they need to survive. You can’t protect them forever, and just take a deep breath and realise this. 99% certain, they’ll be just fine, and give you grandchildren. Sadly, this won’t hapen for the McCann’s, not mattter how culpable, at least not through Madeleine.
Every parent has to face the dreadful possibility of their child dying before them, for whatever reasons, but we also have to face the reality of bringing up our children to survive in whatever world we have bequeathed them - good or bad. We cannot do it for them.
August 16th, 2007 at 11:20 am
Terrific post, saddened!
My only issue with your post is that I am not concerned about over-protecting my children (4 yrs and 2 yrs). I don’t feel that they will be victimized in the future by strangers because I am raising them to be wary of all strangers. In fact, I hope for them to be anti-social and introspective. Humans are cruel, greedy and manipulative and I generally avoid them.
I am quite upset with the Mccanns for leaving the children alone, and I am tired of thinking about all this. I’m still hoping for a resolution and afterwards I expect to see them stand before a judge. Six months in jail seems fair to me. I am not concerned about their careers. They will always find some type of work.
August 16th, 2007 at 10:35 am
I would be rather surprised if any charges are preferred in this sad case except possibly child endangerment, obstruction, wasting police time etc. The Daily Express in the UK says this morning that it is ‘alleged’ that the police know her killer(s), but I don’t think anyone rational believes that rag, and it takes care to use the word ‘alleged’ in its copy. Just selling papers.
I don’t think the McCanns had anything to do with her disappearance, and I think all the ‘evidence’ of their friends is a panicky and ill-advised effort to protect the McCann’s careers. You have to understand that any charge of child endangerment or negligence would virtually finish their careers in the NHS, and their fellow-professional friends would have understood that very well. I doubt if that was the very first thing on the McCanns’ own minds, but due to a phone call to a British TV station from a well-meaning friend the morning after, the media / PR campaign swung into action very fast. So a secondary consideration, like careers, would have become quite prominent rather quickly in the rapidly-assembling ‘Team McCann’ objectives. Not something lost on Gerry McCann, I imagine, who would hope to achieve both - finding Madeleine, and leaving Portugal and arriving home without any stigma attached. Their loyal friends would have done their best to protect them, and then found themselves being continually interrogated apart from each other and that their stories simply didn’t add up in the eyes of investigators, bloggers and the media.
If you think it through, you can see how this sorry and tragic mess arose. And it really doesn’t mean there was any sinister intent or action on behalf of the McCann party - just a dreadfully, and possibly culpable, decision on the night, and in the confused few days following. The Portuguese police, with their own (quite fair) legal system of sub-judice silence, and their lack of experience and resources in these sort of cases, have suffered charges of incompetence. In hindsight, they probably would have done better to ask the UK for immediate assistance, but I don’t suppose any of you would have done that at the time. I’m sure they are reviewing their procedures now. And that’s how expertise works - drawing on the mistakes of the past.
This child is dead, and probably has been from that first night. And abductor would have taken one of the younger, less articulate, children if the intention had been ‘benevolent’ i.e. wanting a child to cherish. Which probably leaves an accident, or an opportunist paedophile chancing upon a wandering girl looking for her parents after she awoke. Either way, the trail is rather cold now, especially given the proximity to an ocean.
The decision at what age, and under what circumstances, to leave children alone (or in the care of quite young babysitters) is difficult - it depends on circumstances and the maturity of the children concerned. Dining out of direct view of 3 children under 4 does, I absolutely agree, seem quite an extraordinary decision, and not one I ever took, being in charge of two exuberant and adventurous boys. Not because one might be snatched by a paedophile (the least likely event) but just because so much else could go wrong. And to the person who said you could leave 15-year old for hours ….Hah! They’re even worse at that age, as you may find out. When I leave mine now, at 21 and 22, I still check the smoke alarms before I go … it’s all I can do now.
However, in reply to all those others here who vow they would NEVER leave a child between, say 9 - 13, on its own, even for a couple of minutes, I would say you are raising someone who is probably over-protected, and also inculcating a sense of potential victimhood at the hand of total strangers which is both totally unrealistic and does no favour to the person you are trying to raise. Children must learn to be independent, responsible for themselves and others, and to deal with risk. Projecting your own irrational fears ( - yes - irrational, if you read and understand the statistics), now matter how well intentioned, does not amount to responsible parenthood.
The McCanns are mired in misery, potential prosecution for neglect, no ‘positive’ outcome - and though I find them slightly weird and their actions strange, I ultimately feel very sorry for them. I also feel sorry for Robert Murat - victim of a stupid and opportunistic British reporter, and also victim of two very different legal systems and cultures.
Like Colette, I’ve tried to walk away from this discussion, but it seems rather difficult. So many posters have such bald, immediate and stupid views, whilst really knowing nothing, and it is such a mystery … and other posters come in with very sensible ideas. We all just really want a resolution .. but it won’t happen.
August 13th, 2007 at 3:11 pm
The Mccann’s anguish is dwarfed by Madeleine’s terror and pain. Jailtime!
August 10th, 2007 at 12:20 pm
without getting into it all again, neither of the McCanns are being paid for compassionate leave. The NHS can’t bend the rules like that, can you imagine the furore from NHS workers everywhere? I think it was paid for the first four weeks under the ‘exceptional’ rules. Their jobs do remain open though.
BTW I disagree with the fund but I suppose if people keep sending money in, where do you put it? I personally cannot understand why anyone sent any money. To me its like knitting matinee jackets for soap characters imaginary babies or sending teddy bears by the thousand to royal babies. Weird…
I could see the point of the reward though even if its not done any good. Reward money is only on paper…. JKR’s money / Branson’s money is still with them. It only gets used in the event of a conviction following on from the information given.
August 9th, 2007 at 10:55 pm
Oh Denise - to repeat a phrase “how naive” Jump off the band wagon and get into the real world. Do you honestly think that dad McCann is not being paid for compassionate leave? What would you have done in their position - just days after reporting your child missing - Would you have re-mortgaged your house to ensure that you had enough money to cope - or set up a paypal account and expect the world to contribute to their attempt to justify negligence. AND - this took some thinking through - within a fortnight of Madeleine going “missing” a private limited company was set up with its function to “financially support the McCann family” Not something that immediately comes into the head of a doctor?? Maybe accountants - but surely not doctors
August 9th, 2007 at 9:50 am
well der obstreperous!!! don’t be dumb!
what do you think the money is for!
They are not working at the moment, so need the money for campaiging etc!
The mccanns are just great to keep strength up to campaign in finding their daughter, why don’t poor working class people do it! because they work differently and don’t think the same and not motivated, and thats the difference between poor and people like mccanns, they work for a living and don’t sit around waiting for the police and media to do their job, they get out their with all their grief and sadness and try and find their daughter,
You don’t need money to get donations if your daugther went missing, so why do they get attacked at getting donations, anyone would do it.
the money would not even matter to the mccanns at a time like this!
August 9th, 2007 at 9:37 am
I think you’ll find that ‘if Jordan had done it’ you all would have been supporting her up to the hilt! It would be okay because she’s ‘one of us’ albeit one of us worth 30 million!
Your argument gets shot down immediately because both of the McCanns are from working class backgrounds. They simply trained for 6 years to become doctors who both work for the NHS NOT the private sector.
I love the way the anti’s still go on and on about people defending them. No-one is defending their original actions, just offering compassion…… and I shall continue to do that
And I can’t even be arsed to go over the money thing again…. if you don’t understand it by now the you never will!!!!
August 9th, 2007 at 8:21 am
When you have children the partying life is just about gone.
How anyone can make excuses for them leaving a baby in charge of two other babies is beyond me.
Why do they need a website with donations of nearly a million pounds?
What is the money for?
The police don’t charge do they?
It’s all adding up to a scam and lots of people have fallen for it.
If these were poor working class people the media would have hung, drawn and quartered them by now.
What if Jordan had done it?
What would the reaction have been??
August 9th, 2007 at 12:40 am
I agree with you Julie - and have you noticed the way the McCann man rises to critics. Anyone in his profession should have the guts to stand up and be counted. Naive indeed…They were both fully aware of their actions on that night - and if they were not, then they should not be in the jobs they are in - putting the lives of people in their hands. If you prescribe you point out the side effects. The side effects of not accepting a baby sitting service was the loss of the most precious thing in the world. That quote from the McCanns at the start of al this “We were at worst naive” It really makes me wild that with a daughter abducted the only phrase these supposedly inteligent beings can come up with is that. I just want to bang their heads together!! and I know that would do nothing whatsoever to bring Madeleine back - but it sure as hell would make me feel better
August 8th, 2007 at 8:32 pm
Mark M,
I have to agree with you, and have agreed with your postings all along.
The McCann’s are fully liable for the disappearance of their daughter. I am not part of the “McCann pity party”, as I feel that they deserve no pity, their direct actions caused the circumstances.
They should be tried in a court of law for their actions on the evening of their daughter’s disappearance. Why on earth feel sorry for them, they indirectly caused their own child’s disappearance. THIS FACT YOU CANNOT GET AWAY FROM !!!!
August 8th, 2007 at 8:30 pm
Okay Mark. Agreed. We’ll debate again if/when there is an outcome!
Denise, IMO there’s good karma in being generous spirited…..
August 8th, 2007 at 8:22 pm
But Denise your last post (#126) shows that you haven’t got my point at all. I’m sure the McCanns are suffering but it is not sufficient to say, because they’re suffering, they should be excused the laws and rules that apply to everyone else.
In simple terms, making the McCanns account for their actions may help prevent something like this happening again.
Of course I’ve made mistakes, I’ve said as much in an earlier post, but if my actions cause harm to someone I don’t expect my regret to excuse me from liability.
August 8th, 2007 at 8:15 pm
Denise,
They will suffer for the rest of their lives for what they did, but Madeleine will suffer more. She depended on her parents to protect her, and they made the ultimate mistake. There is no ways under the sun that any parent worth their salt will do what they did. It was utterly selfish. I have three sons, and have NEVER EVER even contemplated leaving them alone the way the McCann’s left their three children alone.
Yes, I have made mistakes in my life, gross mistakes, however, my children always came first. If my children were not allowed, or it was not convenient to take them where I was going, I simply did NOT go!
I made the choice to have those children, and with that choice came sacrifices! Something that the McCann parents put aside for the sake of their own “enjoyment” that fateful evening!
I’m just getting so sick and tired of people “defending” them and feeling sorry for them now. For heaven’s sakes, when you become a parent, you accept certain responsibilities in life !!!!!
August 8th, 2007 at 8:08 pm
mark! of course I get it! and have never said what the mccanns did was right, I’m a mother and would have never left mine alone like that, but my point is its no good kicking a person when they are down, they are suffering enough!
there is enough suffering in the world without adding to it and going on about it, but then some people have nothing better in their life to do but grizzle!
Have you never made a mistake in your life!
August 8th, 2007 at 3:43 pm
Indeed we don’t Jack (post 124) and I’d think the police are keeping an open mind about all possibilities. There are enough conspicy theorists having their say on this case as it is and, without any evidence to suggest something other than an abduction by a third party, it’s a pretty big leap to the alternative possible conclusion.
August 8th, 2007 at 3:32 pm
Many people are working on the assumption that Madeleine was abducted. As Sherlock Holmes said “When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, MUST be the truth.”
There is a great danger when investigating any crime of presupposing what must have happened, rather than looking at the evidence and then drawing conclusions from the facts you have.
So far we have absolutely no conclusive proof that Madeleine was even abducted.
August 8th, 2007 at 1:45 pm
Moderation, indeed we can agree to disagree. It seems to me that this chapter, at least, in this sad story is coming to a close. I understand that Portugese media is reporting this more critically and, with possible developments in the police investigation, some questions may soon be answered.
Perhaps only when all the questions are answered will we know who was right and who was wrong in this “lively exchange”.
August 8th, 2007 at 1:23 pm
Mark M. Shall we agree to disagree? I’m not going to move any further and neither are you but its been an interesting debate. What do the politicians call it? ‘A lively exchange’??
August 8th, 2007 at 12:39 pm
Moderation; while you may not have said the McCanns did nothing wrong, there are lots of people on here and elsewhere who seem quite happy to excuse the McCanns actions and even to suggest that leaving your children in those circumstances is normal and acceptable.
The abductor may have acted with intent but the McCanns gave him/her the opportunity. While they may not have intended for their daughter to be abducted, they did intend to leave there children unsupervised.
As for seeing the results of their actions on TV, to be honest they don’t seem to come across as guilt ridden. They appear to still be in denial and, to be brutally blunt, would appear to have gained materially from this whole ghastly business.
I actually understand why they have mounted the publicity campaign that they have. I don’t agree with it, I think they are emotionally harming themselves and others who have been in similar situations, but I understand why they are doing it.
The UK media simply present the McCanns as victims and, I really believe, the message is being lost that their actions contributed to Madeline’s abduction. That is why I believe the authorities and the media should ask difficult questions and, if necessary, act.
August 8th, 2007 at 11:34 am
Agree and disagree!!
whoever took Madeleine took her with intent…..
The McCanns didn’t do what they did with intent but yes it was stupid.
They are however being punished already. I really think they are. I doubt there’s anything any court can do that would be worse for them.
Also, seeing them on TV and seeing the results of their actions may be more of a deterrent to others than just reading that they were being investigated by Social Services! (as I said, I was a social worker in child protection for many years)
‘Leave your child alone and it could be abducted’ is a potent message with the McCanns as an example.
And no I never said they did nothing wrong! Not once, not anywhere!
August 8th, 2007 at 11:23 am
Denise, you write: “I have not seen a perfect parent yet! I see kids being locked in cars on the side of the road and no parent to be seen, and mothers kicking their kids at the supermarket, they don’t get punished !”
Which is exactly why the McCann’s self confessed actions, leaving their children unsupervised while they were at a bar some distance away, should not be allowed to be seen as acceptable or even excusable.
August 8th, 2007 at 11:12 am
Denise and Moderation: Again I come back to my original statement, you just don’t get it do you?
The McCanns did something very stupid and, in lots of people’s view, very wrong. As a result they put their daughter in danger. That fact, and it’s a fact by the McCanns’ own admission, should not simply be dismissed.
Hindsight may be 20/20 (although it isn’t because many people repeat their mistakes) but it doesn’t take a lot of foresight to see that leaving three children under the age of four alone, in a strange environment in an apparently unlocked apartment is asking for trouble.
Correct; nobody has the right, as Denise puts it, to go and take a child. Nobody has a right to help themselves to the money in my bank account either but that doesn’t mean I leave my debit card lying around with the pin number written on it. If Madeline’s parents had not left her alone in those circumstances, the PROBABILITY is that she would not have been taken.
Correct; the child could have been taken at the swimming pool and, if that had happened, I would be saying “what a terrible thing, what do parents have to do to keep their children safe?” However that is not what happened; the McCann’s left their children alone in circumstances that, I venture to suggest, the overwhelming majority of parents consider reckless.
Perhaps I am wrong, perhaps you are right. So if Madeline’s abductor is tracked and arrested and, if he or she says “I am full of remorse over this, I have been suffering terrible guilt since it happened”, I trust you will be calling for him/her to be set free because, as Moderations says: “‘20/20 hindsight’ is wonderful….. churning the same stuff (for and against) over and over won’t change it; if it could then I’m sure the [abductor] would do it all differently. I’m sure we’ve all got things we would have done differently… I know I have.”
Of course, that would be ridiculous but then so are your arguments that the McCanns have done nothing wrong.
August 8th, 2007 at 8:28 am
Denise, I agree with you. ‘20/20 hidsight’ is wonderful….. churning the same stuff (for and against) over and over won’t change it; if it could then I’m sure the McCanns would do it all differently.
I’m sure we’ve all got things we would have done differently… I know I have.
August 8th, 2007 at 4:24 am
Moderation I hear what you are saying,
But I have not seen a perfect parent yet! I see kids being locked in cars on the side of the road and no parent to be seen, and mothers kicking their kids at the supermarket, they don’t get punished !
The important thing is madeleine so going on about the mccanns is not going to bring her back,
and even if they left the door open , no dick head has the right to go in and take a child,
they could have turned their back for a second and the child taken at the swimming pool
August 8th, 2007 at 4:20 am
was that about the blood being found Alice?