Interview With Survior Of James Arthur Ray’s Sedona Sweat Lodge
MORE on the James Arthur Ray Sweat Lodge fatalities as Texas resident Beverley Bunn speak out publicly about the events that led up to the three deaths.
Ms Bunn tells of the New Age oven than killed three, saying how the the participants had “undergone days of physically and mentally strenuous events that included fasting. In one game, guru James Arthur Ray even played God.”
But it is ok because James Arthur Ray is doing fine. And he’s making puns:
I promise you I am doing a lot of learning and growing. I have taken heat for that decision, but if I chose to lock myself in my home, I am sure I would be criticized for hiding and not practicing what I preach.
Anorak’s Man in LA looks on:
The dominoes have started to fall, and James Arthur Ray is standing directly in their path. Yet another survivor of the October 8th sweat lodge disaster has come forward.
This survivor, unlike the previous three who’ve spoken directly to the media including Rumor Rat, is speaking through an attorney.
And according to that lawyer, she has a good reason for having him do the talking… her speech was affected by neurological damage resulting – allegedly – from the conditions inside the sweat lodge.
The survivor is 59 year old Patagonia, Arizona resident Sidney Spencer. She’s represented by attorney Ted Schmidt.
“If this sweat-lodge experience had been conducted properly nobody would have been injured, but it was reckless how they handled this thing,” said Schmidt.
According to Schmidt, his client was in the back row of people inside the make-shift tent, next to the three victims who eventually died from the conditions there.
“Each and every one of them, they were told that to succeed you need to see this through to the end and if you don’t you will have failed this activity,” Schmidt said.
Like so many others there, Spencer suffered multiple organ failures. She also has neurological issues and has difficulty talking. She is recovering with family in Tucson.
Spencer is the fourth victim to come forward.
Last night, a woman identified only as “Danielle” spoke off-camera to a CNN correspondent.
That interview in full:
“…(we) must live with the emotional suffering of this event.”
Gut wrenching words from a survivor of James Arthur Ray’s now-notorious Sedona, Arizona sweat lodge.
His name is Richard. He’s from South Florida, and he’s one of the approximately 60 people who paid in excess of $10,000 to spend five days at the feet of Ray, learning the mystical secrets to happiness, health and wealth.
But when the steam from the heated volcanic rocks piled at the center of the make-shift tent cleared on that Thursday October evening, three members of the group were near death, and 18 others required hospitalization for physical injuries.
The scene inside the tent was unbelievably claustrophobic, Richard tells Rumor Rat in an exclusive question & answer session. All those people crammed into a space the equivalent of a twenty-by-twenty foot room.
“The only personal space you had was where you were sitting, nothing more,” says Richard.
Every 15 to 20 minutes, James Ray would open the doorway of the tent to allow people to bring in more heated rocks, onto which water would be poured.
Only when the doorway was open were participants allowed to leave. And even then, according to Richard, Ray would strongly discourage them from leaving “by telling them to ‘push past the pain’ and ‘you are more than your body.’ It was quite a bit more stern than that however… all of us inside were trying to be supportive of each other and encouraged them to stay.”
By the time two hours – perhaps even more time, Richard can’t be sure – had passed, the mental and physical states of the retreat participants were questionable.
“(I) Remember, coming out of the tent most of us were still delirious & just trying to gather our own bearings. I was aware of people being passed out, vomiting, etc but didn’t realize anything more serious was going on until the paramedics, ambulances, fire rescue, started showing up.”
“We were getting people out of the tents while the staff tried to tend to everyone outside the tent.”
As members of the Angel Valley Retreat staff tended to those who weren’t physically hurt but needed to process the emotions of what had just happened, James Ray slipped out of town.
“We don’t know why James left,” Richard says. “We can only assume his attorneys told him to get out ASAP… how he handled this since is not acceptable.”
In spite of what Richard experienced, he is reserved in the way he lays responsibility for the horror of that afternoon in the desert.
“The bottom line in all of this is that nobody knows what went wrong yet and why people died this time. Should and could steps have been taken to ensure our safety? Absolutely.”
According to Richard, reports that Ray had hired a nurse to be part of the event are not true.
“There was not a nurse on staff,” explains Richard. “There was someone who used to be a nurse there that also just happened to be at the event as a volunteer. She was not ‘hired’ to be there as a nurse.”
The events of that Thursday afternoon came on the heals of what Ray referred to as a “vision quest,” during which participants are dropped individually into the desert area surrounding the Angel Valley Retreat. It’s designed to be a time that includes meditation, prayer, complete fasting and water deprivation. Most say the Vision Quest lasted 36 hours. Richard couldn’t be sure:
“We were taken out very late at night with no watch so we didnt really know what time it was when they dropped us off or when they picked us up.”
Early in the five-day experience, Richard says many of the participants shaved or cut their hair extremely short.
“Most of us shaved our heads to release ourselves from our attachment to our looks & other people’s opinions,” explained Richard. “A few of the women did not shave their heads but opted to cut their hair.”
In the days that immediately followed the retreat, James Ray gathered many of the participants on a conference call. Richard was included on that call, but his recollection of the details are vague.
“Yes, I was on the call,” he says. “But to be honest with you, I came away even more disillusioned & wasn’t really sure what his goal or purpose of the call was.” - RR
The, reported, transcript of that call can be read here. Gather round. You are among freinds now…
Transcript Of James Arthur Ray’s Conference Call To Arizona Sweat Box Victims, And Last Tweets
More in the forums. Join us. Joii-ii–nnn usssss…
Posted: 22nd, October 2009 | In: Key Posts, Media Comments (54) | Follow the Comments on our RSS feed: RSS 2.0 | TrackBack | Permalink
Comments
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November 10th, 2009 at 8:09 pm
Hey Linda,
You just outed yourself - “wax poetic”?? Liberal catchphase if I ever heard one.
Thanks for proving my point.
November 10th, 2009 at 3:52 am
Oh, please, Elizabeth. Let’s not bring politics where it doesn’t belong. Liberalism has nothing to do with the manipulative, coercive and controlling actions James Ray promulgated in his seminars and retreats, and I resent you saying so. I could wax poetic on the correlation between greedy con artists and conservatives, but I won’t.
November 10th, 2009 at 3:34 am
I guess some people don’t think these phony gurus who go around taking money from gullible and unsuspecting attendees, should be run out on a rail…sounds like the old live and let live liberalism these “new agers” spew all the time. Got news for you libs…hiding behind the Constitution doesn’t get it! Freedom of speech does not include talking people into sweat lodges, then not allowing them to leave regardless of their physical condition. I guess noone ever told some folks that they don’t have to drink the kool-aid in order to be liked.
November 9th, 2009 at 5:45 pm
Theres is no freedom of religion when you are exploiting our culture and tradtions. We have every right to thwart and stop these thieves from doing any more harm. I am Yanktonai Hunkpati Dakota Sioux from Crow Creek, South Dakota, USA.
November 9th, 2009 at 3:29 pm
To SoDak:
I believe there were about eight rounds.
I don’t know how many rows of people. But there were about 65 people sitting on little foam mats, with no room to maneuver. I think that the people furthest from the door were the ones that died.
Obviously the foam and the plastic tarps were a problem, combined with the fact that the people had been fasting. Also, when people wanted to leave, Mr. Ray discouraged them from doing so. It was pitch-black inside, so people couldn’t see to get out, nor could they tell that their friends were passing out.
November 9th, 2009 at 6:09 am
Does anyone know how many rows of people he had in that “oven of death” and if possible, how many rounds did he go thru. Rounds I mean the 15 to 20 minute intervals in which he moved in more rocks. How big of a pit was the pit he had been putting the lava rocks into? I have been to several sweats my first being around the time I was 6 or 7. I cannot understand how this “heeler” could not recognize the limits of the human body. How going thru something of this nature is not very easy for someone who is not used to it. I hope this “heeler” does not get off with a slap on the wrist. I mean, in a baptism, when a person is fully submerged in the water to be re-born, do they hold him under till he passes out or until the EXPERIENCED dunker is satisfied this person is born again?
November 8th, 2009 at 4:56 pm
I am re-reading these very interesting comments, and I want to add one thing.
This is to Randy: Sorry to keep picking on you, but your arguments are full of holes. Near the end of one post (#34), you question why people criticize James Ray. You speculate that these individuals are “bereft of any real purpose or direction.”
Now, this is one of the oldest arguments in the book, although I will give you some credit for wording it better than most.
If you take away the well-written words, including the Shakespeare quote, what we have left is: “You’re in no position to criticize–you’re just jealous and bitter!”
This argument has no bearing on the facts. The facts are that most of what James Ray teaches has no scientific basis. He has done irreparable harm to numerous people with his “mind over matter” ideas which clearly do not work.
You can’t refute that with the “Oh yeah? And I suppose you think YOU’RE perfect!” type of arguments, which we probably were all guilty of using in the third grade.
November 8th, 2009 at 9:05 am
To those who think that all these “snake oil people” should be run out of town on a “rail”.
Freedom of speech is a very big part of why people love this country.
I want to continue to have the right to select my place of worship, even if my neighbor hates the fact that I do not believe the same way they do.
I want to be able to attend a Yoga class without the fear of being accused of “cult” activity.
I want to be able to purchase any book I want to read, and speak about it in public, as well as in private.
There is nothing more precious than our right to speak, publish, worship the way we choose to, attend the schools of our choice, work in a vocation that make us happy, and if the moment calls for it, scream from the top of our lungs what we believe is right.
Mr. Ray is going to be involved in defending his position for a very long time to come. His actions, not the actions of an entire community, caused three people to die, and many others to suffer. Some lives, will probably never fully recover. I agree that this situation should be examined, and examined again. Then, allow our justice system to make the final decisions. These decisions should only affect the lives of the people involved in this situation. Hopefully, some healing for all involved will take place.
Without our freedom of speech, this blog would not exist. Going back one step further, the news about Sedona would have never reached our ears.
Read some history. When people are no longer permitted to speak, terrible things happen.
What is missing? Why are people so hungry for leadership? What can we say in this blog to start teaching people how to follow their own instincts, and to never again put complete faith in another human?
E=MC(2) “Question everything”
November 8th, 2009 at 1:25 am
A lot of this boils down to people want like crazy to please these cult leaders…everyone in this sweat lodge situation just wanted to be liked, to be accepted. So, they drank the kool-aid. These poisonous men need to be run out on a rail! They’re not leaders - they’re murderers.
November 7th, 2009 at 3:33 am
PT Barnum was right.
The “science” references in the Ray literature were littered with mistakes that eight-graders would make and any professor or freshman student alike would balk at this pablum. Telling individuals to “question” and “make their own decisions” gives them the illusion of choice, while simultaneously wearing down their resolve with sixteen hour sales pitches and deep dark confessionals. No one can make you anything over the course of one weekend. A seminar does not make one a warrior, a priest, a curandero, an elder, a magician. If you blow your wad on this drivel you can be someone with an empty wallet, a case of Emperor’s New Clothes and a big red pair of clown-shoes!
Ray has not provided credentials of being schooled in any indigenous traditions, South American, Native American, Polynesian or otherwise, so how was he going to make anyone a Japanese Samurai!? He hasn’t studied in India, so he is not a guru, either! At what point do people throw their lives, future, common sense, and savings account into the fire? Its seems like all of this sleazy new-age crap causes permanent brain damage along with the ability to discern from right and wrong. If you want to learn about the cultures of the world or learn science: go to a university, join the peace corps, military, or join a real religion. If you are blinded by visions of greed, power, and anger and follow a Pied Piper, don’t complain where it will ultimately lead you.
October 26th, 2009 at 1:29 pm
I forgot to add: Wade Crowe, I wish you and your friends the best of luck in reclaiming your Traditions. According to what I was taught, the Warrior (whatever his Nation) underwent “Purification Ordeals” because he knew his Tribe’s Security — in fact its very Survival — might depend on his acting swiftly, decisively, even selflessly in a Crisis. Seeing people encouraged to indulge in them simply to make themselves “Smarter” Investers verges on what a Christian might call “Blasphemy”..
October 26th, 2009 at 6:27 am
Jail may not be the only thing Mr. Ray has to worry about. I suppose a case could be made for Criminal Negligence, if sauna operators routinely warn users about the harm that could result from excessive exposure to steam — and the Sedona “Sweatbox” was, by any definition, a “Sauna”. Civil Lawsuits for “wrongful death”, “permanent injury” and/or “emotional trauma” .might possibly stand an even better chance of succeeding. Just because a medicine or a treatment is decribed as “All Natural” or even “Traditional” does NOT mean one can make use of it without invoking a measure of common sense! .
October 26th, 2009 at 5:06 am
sounds like ruth and randy drank the cool aide with the dark side kids. maybe too much sugar eh,.,you 2 ought to start your own ‘create wealth” seminars, when jimmyboy is gone you can pull in the slack. and lap up the proceeds, you sure got the abundant harm-money program down to a tee..
to call yourselves graduates,and to claim bragging rights to that.. well maybe move to sedona bring your rubber tomahawks.toy pyramids and rock shop crystals. just in case a reptilian pops your little bubble..or a new age thief trys to sell your soul after he picks your pocket and tests you will..in the middle east you are known as infidels, no cultural fidelity whatsoever instilled in you at birth.. you have to pay for it, memorize it, practice it and preach it..and even then.. you are still merely infidels..freaks of nature..exploiters and possibly victumz of inbred genetic modification maybe? you must feel like fools, but the pride of the eurocentric mind thrives in denial..that’s a fact of western civilization..rest in peace ..
October 26th, 2009 at 3:45 am
This is to Ruth:
Thank you for sharing your interesting story, and I am glad you are not dead.
Just because his programs have some merit, does not mean that he should not go to jail.
I have NO PROBLEM judging this guy. You can learn a lot by someone’s actions during and after a crisis. James Ray is acting like a coward, sneaking off, then pretending that he had no responsibility! I’m sorry, but when he tried to claim that the injured and deceased people CHOSE their result–I have no problem judging him as a person of low moral character who will say or do anything to weasel out of the consequences of this tragedy.
October 26th, 2009 at 1:28 am
Not one Native person was even close to Ray’s sweat and not one person at the Sedona site possessed the knowledge to pour the water or even heat the rocks. Would you stay on a plane if the pilot appeared as a 16 year old girl in a McDonald’s uniform…..or even Ronald Mc Donald? So why would anyone enter a sweat lodge if there were no Natives to supervise it’s use. It just goes to show that not only is a fool easily separated from thier money but also their life.
October 26th, 2009 at 12:23 am
Well, we the Dakota/Lakota/Nakota are in the position to judge James Arthur Ray. We already know the details and he has failed miserably. I just hope that his leg irons are tight enough.
October 25th, 2009 at 10:30 pm
As a graduate of two of James’ seminars I can say the same thing now as I said to my incredulous friends at the time, who asked, “You paid HOW MUCH?!!!” To which I always replied, yes it’s an absolutely outrageous amount of money, yet it was still worth every penny. How much is it worth to change your life and attitude around? Can you put a price on that? One friend told me she paid $40,000 to change her life–by going to graduate school. I credit James with having helped me facilitate a change I wanted very badly, for one tenth of that price.
Remember, people, it’s the teaching, not the teacher. Even if the teacher has failed miserably, as I am afraid James has, that doesn’t mean the teaching was no good. He was an excellent teacher.
This has been a real crisis for the community of folks who believed in him, and thus is a huge lesson for all of us, including James, in personal responsibility, trusting yourself, listening to your own inner voice, not letting your ego get as big as a house, and more.
And how can we support, let alone trust, a person who let three people and eighteen others down so badly that it ended in death? Jeeze!
As much as I admired him as a fantastic teacher, I had some problems with his persona as a human, as well as the money he charged, and was done with him as a teacher. But one of the things you get from going to the seminars is a warrior group, five people who have gone through the same experience, with whom you do a further eight weeks’ of homework, which helps you to continue with the work and the lessons. My warrior group lasted for many, many months, and is still in contact. Out of that group, three would/will go onto further seminars (assuming James isn’t in leg irons), two of us would not, and one is still unknown. I don’t know if that’s typical, but I do find it interesting.
Cult? Nope. Of course, some people may be slavish followers, but you can get that anywhere, doesn’t matter whether it’s religion, politics, or carrot juice (beware those with the glazed look in their eye who badly want to convert you). Two of my warrior group were in that last seminar, and left before the sweatlodge, because they weren’t comfortable with what they felt was being asked of them. Yet one of them would consider further work with James, because she believes her safety is her own responsibility, and she’s perfectly capable of listening to her inner voice which says, this is not right for me, right now. I personally don’t have that much faith in myself, so it’s just as well I have no plans to continue!
What happened is everyone’s worst nightmare. And James does not appeared to have lived up to his mantra of “Be 100% accountable.” But we still don’t have all the details, and are not a position to judge.
So rather than dig out the pitchforks and rope, let’s do something more positive: Quit slinging mud at one another, be our higher selves, send healing love and compassion to all the survivors and their families, be kind and caring to all those around us.
October 25th, 2009 at 3:35 pm
Forgot to add:
Looking to one scam artist to give “scientific validation” to another scam artist is not a good idea.
Again, the movie “What The Bleep Do We Know?” is NOT SCIENTIFIC.
October 25th, 2009 at 3:32 pm
I would like to respond to Randy with regard to the film called “What The Bleep Do We Know?”
If you read the movie reviews written by REAL PHYSICISTS, they discount the info in that movie as hogwash.
It’s been a few years since I have seen it, so I can only think of one example to give here off the top of my head. There is a short discussion approximately half-way through the film of a Japanese researcher, a Dr. Emoto, who talks about changing the molecular structure of water by talking to it, by saying either positive or negative things. He would try saying “I love you” to the water molecules, then photographing the results. Then he would say “you fool!” and photograph the results.
I read one of his books and the pictures are astounding. However, other researchers have attempted to test his ideas with double-blind studies. IT DOESN’T WORK. This appears to be a case of someone who wants a certain result so badly, he looks for what he wants until he finds it. This is not the way to do scientific research.
All the film reviews stated that the “science” in this movie was flawed and inaccurate, although one physicist suggested seeing the film as a basis for discussion.
The movie is a propaganda film put out by J. Z. Knight of the Ramtha organization, which I believe is another scam.
October 25th, 2009 at 12:45 pm
I’m interested in hearing just how much Legal Weight is carried by those releases Mr. Ray had his last batch of clients sign. Death-and-Injury Lawyers routinely tear such “waivers” to pieces, especially if the language is somewhat vague when it comes to identifying and defining “risks”, or when there is even the slightest indication that some kind of negligence may have been involved. Where I live, every commercial Sauna displays warnings about strokes, heart attacks, or seizures, or even all three. And what was Mr. Ray’s “SweatHouse” if not a “Super Sauna” ?
“…..Your body is just telling you that you’re going into Cardiac Arrest…..Push past it!!!”
October 25th, 2009 at 10:06 am
Funny how the moderator is posting Lynn’s response but yanking my most recent one because I’m veering “off topic”, yet someone calling for Sedona to be vacated of all non-Indians in some sort of surreal diatribe is apparently “on topic”.
Just read between the lines of Lynn’s latest response and you’ll see my points re: pessimism confirmed. After all, what point is there in you following someone like Ray just to bring them down? Have you ever actually tried living his teachings or the same sorts of teachings from other self-help gurus?
Ok, I admit it. Yes, James Ray is SOOO evil that he planted me here in this one forum to defend him, wouldn’t do anything even if he could to help these dying people who paid him $9000-10000 for it, and shed crocodile tears in front of 200 people the following week to try atoning for it all. I talked to him tonight and he told me (while sitting in his mountain side castle in Transylvania at night (picture rain, thunder and lightning all around), sitting in his torch lit throne room) that he was thinking of new ways to make zombies out of people and take all their money while practicing his evil villain laugh.
Is James Ray a doctor? No. In years past I was a highly trained lifeguard. If we suspected a swimmer had suffered a spinal injury, we were taught a specific procedure to immobilize their spine and get them out of the pool. Beyond that, we were told to do nothing but call 911 and wait for them to show up to handle the situation from there. We were taught if we did anything more than that, we risked causing further injury to the victim. We simply don’t know at this point why Ray apparently did little or nothing when it appears he could and should have done more, perhaps much more. Like spinal injured victims, perhaps his knowledge gave him very specific instructions on what to do (get them out of the lodge) and what not to do before paramedics arrived in this particular situation. Only time will tell. Until the investigations are complete, any speculations on things like this are just gossip.
You say you’ve been ‘keeping tabs’ on James Ray, but that doesn’t qualify you to dismiss him a charlatan. It’s not even enough to just have read all of his books, listened to all his CDs, watched all his videos or taken his courses - many people do all of that and get little or nothing from it all. The point is testing his teachings, and doing that by living them. If they work for you, great. If not, move on. If you haven’t done that, then you have no real basis in calling him a charlatan. If you have tested the teachings, then I’m all ears as to why you think he’s a charlatan. So far I haven’t heard from any of you any substantial criticism of his teachings (only criticisms of him), so until I do I’ll assume the former.
So much of what you say is polarities - “there is nothing in his teachings” - “you believe in everything he has to say”. Ray never asks you to take any teachings purely on faith, or tries to coax you into ‘believing’ anything. He would love to have you come to his events, and he does try to persuade you (especially when you’re at one of these free events - I’ve been to two), but he doesn’t really try putting the squeeze on you you and your wallet beyond anyone else I’ve seen. From what I gather from reading about 5 of his courses, you can get the same thing out of his $20 books or his $200 Science of Success course as you would from his events if you just take the initiative and do the exercises on your own and put them into regular practice. It seems to me many of these gurus are onto the same thing, and each have their own light to shed on it - Jack Canfield, Raymond Aaron, Harv Ecker, and so on. Each has different pieces to share from the same puzzle.
Understand that James Ray was first largely seen at the Learning Annex Wealth Expos in major cities across North America, and unless you’re a big name like Tony Robbins, Donald Trump or Robert Kiyosaki,
all the lesser known speakers (like Ray) had to pay thousands ($5K-$10K per event if I recall) to speak at each Learning Annex event, largely to finance the huge expense of having big name draws like Trump who were paid $1.5 million per event ($15 in total for 10 events) in 2006. If anything, the biggest huckster is Bill Zanker, the president of the Learning Annex, who created these conditions where most of the speakers HAD to give infomercials and sell, sell, sell or lose a lot of money. The writing was on the wall for most people: in Toronto the Wealth Expo was huge in its first year, far smaller in its second year and was canceled the following year.
On the other hand, having listened to one of Eckhart Tolle’s audio books, I regard someone like him as a charlatan. Someone who has merely re-packaged common false religious and philosophical notions and spun them into his own unique web of modern asceticism. That’s my impression anyway - I might be wrong. His stuff just didn’t speak to me - but I’m not about to follow him further so I can prove to myself and others he is a fraud. Why bother?
If you want some scientific validation of the so-called Law of Attraction and Quantum Physics that Ray talks about, see the movie What The Bleep Do We Know? It came out a few years before The Secret. Or read Lynn McTaggart’s The Intention Experiment (she was in both Bleep And The Secret) for dozens of scientific studies in this vein.
You people automatically make a total caricature of fervently believing in something or someone, whoever or whatever it is. The caricature is - pliable minds exploited by hucksters with sham teachings only interested in their own profit, not of their students. Why is that? Is it because you’re so bereft of any real purpose or direction and passion that you rage at anyone who really has it? It all makes me think of a great quote: “Men’s evil manners live in brass, their virtues we write in water” - Shakespeare
Moderator - Your post was restored when it was seen that Lynn had seen yours and replied to it. You are here to debate and not make personal comments
October 25th, 2009 at 7:18 am
kudos to wade crowe. that’s HOW..shundahai.
i say vacate sedona of all non native immigrants,, golfers and neWage frauds alike, fumigate and sage the place of all the malevolent spirits that have manifested there by material destiny, maybe give them a piece of hollywood or san fransisco as compensation for their losses on their assfault self help journey down the plastic road to nowhere..they seem like good burning man material,or scientology candidates for easy bake oven workshops..
and give ALL the red rock country back to the hopi, yavapai, and dineh peoples..who still share the area as have for time immemorial. it’s the very least these insatible seeking beings or pioneers of soul and real estate could do for spiritual enlightenment after 500 years of physical and cultural and emotional genocide. oppression and murder. .commited by their discovery channel ancestors. and now whats left is being marketed by their offspring of the new age..
in fact american’t and its new people could help neutralize alot its bad karma by giving all it’s national parks and federal lands back to the original surviving people of turtle island..the cities they have created for themselves are far more suited for their civilized culture of non savages…i am sure the indigenous peoples would share their beautiful lands with the people of the city, when they have the need to “retreat” get away from themselves and their fugly creations, and see ,maybe even experience nature as the great creator intended it to be seen and experienced….
UGH-HOW.. yampster..
October 25th, 2009 at 5:16 am
I could care less if Mr. Ray had directed his followers to stand neck-deep in jello during a Lunar eclipse, or roll around in chocolare puddingl. If that leads to “Enlightenment” –wonderful! But commercializing and capitalizing on ANYONE’S Sacred Traditions is Wrong, Wrong, WRONG!!! My Christian friends would be appalled to hear that someone was setting fees for “Blessings”, or for inclusion in a “Prayer Circle”. Is the Sweat Lodge Ceremony somehow less worth of “Respect”?
October 25th, 2009 at 5:10 am
@wade crowe:
would it be considered ok for non-natives to study spirituality with natives and perhaps even participate in a sweat lodge done by native experts?
It seems that while different native Nations have somewhat different traditions, rituals etc. associated with sweat lodge use that universally one who leads such a ceremony does so only after much experience, study and spiritual growth and with a small group of participants over whom the leader keeps watch. Obviously an outsider participating would have to complete a good deal of study and spiritual growth as well before he or she could really benefit from the experience.
October 25th, 2009 at 4:38 am
Having, in my youth, been stupid enough to have been involved with two (I didn’t learn) cults - I know a little something about them, and you can put nice little new age spins on them, they all sound, and are, alike in the end. Notice how they all say the same things, and are made up of one charismatic man as leader. Most of the joiners and believers are women, havent you noticed? These guys believe that if the women join, the men will follow. And it is true! They appeal to the women with their looks, and saying the right thing to them. Many of these guys are perverts. The men usually come to bring the money, and to support the women. Do not just take my word for it. Read up on Baghwan, Jim Jones, David Koresch, Werner Eherhardt,on and on. There isn’t a one who will “share” his insights for nothing - there’s always a cost. You pay dearly for their time, in some cases,James Ray, for example, you pay the ultimate cost. They take you away from your families, put you in rooms, take your watches, no bathroom breaks, no sleep. And if you object - you’re the fool in the group. And you never forget the treatment from that! Forget “The Secret” . These monsters are poison. They have all the answers, and until you “get” the secret, you’re just another fool. I could write a book, believe me.
October 25th, 2009 at 3:55 am
I would like to respond to this, although my comments are awaiting moderation.
It’s true that I know nothing about James Ray. However, he ran away from Sedona after the deaths, then blamed the victims for dying! He insinuated that they “chose” to die during the sweat-lodge ceremony. Everything he says, he attempts to distance himself from the tragedy and act like he had no responsibility whatsoever. Each comment he makes, the words are carefully chosen to make it appear as though he was an innocent bystander who has no responsibility whatsoever.
Just from those few things, I would conclude that he is a very cowardly, selfish and dishonest person.
October 25th, 2009 at 3:21 am
Randy–
I could take me days to respond to your post and I don’t have the patience. I’ll just make several points:
1-If anything, I’ve been accused of being a bit overly optimistic in my life. You infer, wrongly, that I am a pessimist. I do try to use my critical-thinking skills, however, and research people that seem to be spouting pseudo-science theories and charging ridiculous amounts of money for seminars that use extremely aggressive hard-sell tactics.
2–I’ve been keeping tabs on James Ray for some time, so you’re wrong (again) that I know nothing about him. At first, I thought he had some appealing ideas, but all it really takes is some investigation into the ’science’ behind his rants and the total lack of any validation of his claims to have studied with any of these ancient tribal communities and shamans, etc., and his BS about learning ‘esoteric’ knowledge to see he is just saying whatever he wants and there is absolutely nothing there.
3–You, Randy, never did answer my questions regarding how you would feel if your mother or sister or son had followed this man, paid many thousands of dollars to him, trusted him, and he had not only been responsible for their deaths (by exhorting people to “push through” their pain and stay in the tent even when they were passing out, vomiting and screaming for help), but had left the scene immediately, and never personally spoken with any of them or you or your family AND had continued to appear at his speaking engagements as if nothing really important had happened? You would be fine with that? I can’t believe you actually just accept everything he says as the truth—every one of the families of the deceased and the people who attended and spoken out so far have all said he has NOT talked to any of them. HE LIED. He cried for himself, you idiot. Someone who really cared would be attending to the bereaved, not traveling around to speaking engagements.
4–I can appreciate a person who can motivate me to push beyond my comfort zone or provide spiritual guidance of some sort. I really like some self-help types. And it is precisely because I am an “active, discerning learner” (which clearly you are not) that I have spent quite some time researching the scam artist that is James Ray. I am not a cynic or critic by nature, but I sure as hell think this man is a sociopathic, narcissistic con man who needs to be stopped before he hurts more people.
5–Since you weren’t there, let’s look at the responses of the people who were–
EVERY ONE OF THEM says he just stood there when people were dying and vomiting and passed out outside the sweat lodge. One woman writhing in pain on the ground screamed his name and he glanced at her, then looked away and never responded. Please don’t tell me that doesn’t sound completely cold and callous to you.
6–There’s a difference between pessimism and pragmatism. You don’t seem to know that.
7–I think you’re a James Ray plant and I feel sorry for you.
Moderator - I have re-edited Randy’s post, it was disallowed as we encourage debate and not personal attacks. Your reply is acceptable as it stands
October 25th, 2009 at 2:50 am
Hey everyone—
Check out what Randy somehow emailed to me without it showing up here (Randy, I’ll respond to your fallacious and ill-thought-out arguments momentarily…):
Author: Randy
Comment:
Lynn- you and your cynical ilk making all these condemnations on this page are all of a piece. You immediately assume that any self-help practitioner is a fraud from the get go, and use whatever means necessary to bolster this opinion and distort things even further.
There’s a very simple reason why you do this, and it’s the main difference between someone like you and I: fundamentally, I’m an optimist, and fundamentally, you’re a pessimist.
I can tell this by the way you think, and I can already tell you have a losing way of thinking because it’s based on pessimism. Successful people (however you measure success) don’t think like you do. They may or may not think like James Ray or other self-help teachers, but there are common qualities between all of them, and they were never brainwashed or brainwashed anyone else to become successful. Have you ever met a very successful pessimist? I haven’t. I believe our optimism or pessimism has a lot to do with our own self-confidence (or lack thereof).
How we think is one of the very first things Ray and many other self help practitioners I know of challenge us to understand and change (if necessary) because they know it fundamentally determines each person’s reality. I’ve seen this play out in life in so many ways long before I ever even heard of James Ray. If you were an active, discerning learner, you wouldn’t immediately stereotype someone you evidently know little or nothing about and then draw conclusions based on what you want to (or don’t want to) see based on your pre-conceived ideas! It wouldn’t matter WHO the self help practitioner is - you WANT to paint them all as frauds and awful people so you can proclaim “there aren’t really any people who can dramatically help us improve our lives”, thereby justifying your own lack of success and fulfillment and exonerating yourself from any responsibility for it.
You have a very different way of empowering yourself than any self help teacher would espouse, and it’s an illusory one. You derive a sense of power and self-righteousness from identifying, condemning and bringing down whatever you decide to set your sights on. The sad truth is, all you’ve really done is see things as YOU are, not things as they actually are, and so you or anyone else are absolutely no better off at the end of the day. In this case, all you’ve done is muddy the waters and distort reality with your prejudice and stupid, geriatric finger wagging.
In fact, the way I first found out about the sweat lodge incident was from James Ray talking about it in his blog which I occasionally read. In the blog, he stated he has “reached out to all the families (involved) personally”. He reportedly openly wept about the incident at his next public event after the Sedona one. Now I concede that he may be at fault to some degree for these deaths and injuries, even though there have only ever been one or two people injured in the 7 years he has been doing these sweat lodges. But that isn’t nearly good enough for most of you. Even before all the facts are in, you WANT to see him burn at the stake because people like him represent an affront to how you perceive the world.
October 25th, 2009 at 2:16 am
To Randy,
How do you like your kool-aid?
October 25th, 2009 at 1:06 am
How? You expect us (Dakota/Lakota/Nakota) to wait timidly and let the white exploiters run rampant with our traditions?
1. We hereby and henceforth declare war against all persons who persist in exploiting, abusing and misrepresenting the sacred traditions and spiritual practices of our Lakota, Dakota and Nakota people.
2. We call upon all our Lakota, Dakota and Nakota brothers and sisters to actively and vocally oppose this alarming take over and systematic destruction of our sacred traditions.
3. We urge our people to coordinate with tribal members everywhere to identify instances in which our sacred traditions are being abused, and then to resist this abuse, utilizing whatever specific tactics are necessary; demonstrations, boycotts, press conferences etc.
4. We especially urge all our Lakota, Dakota and Nakota people to take action to prevent our own people from contributing to, and enabling, the abuse of our sacred ceremonies and spiritual practices by outsiders. As we all know, there are ones among our own people who are prostituting our spiritual ways for their own selfish gain.
5. We assert a posture of zero-tolerance for any ‘white man’s shaman’ who rises from within our own communities to ‘authorize’ the expropriation of our ceremonial ways by non-Indians. All such ‘plastic medicine men’ are our enemies.
6. We urge traditional people, tribal leaders, and governing councils of all other Indian nations, to join us in calling for an immediate end to this rampant exploitation of our respective American Indian sacred traditions by issuing statements denouncing such abuse. It is not only the Lakota, Dakota and Nakota people whose spiritual practices are being violated by non-Indians.
7. We urge all our Indian brothers and sisters to act decisively and boldly in our present campaign to end the destruction of our sacred traditions, keeping in mind our highest duty as Indian people; to preserve the purity of our precious traditions for our children and the future generations so that they will survive and prosper in the sacred manner intended for each of our respective peoples by our Creator.
Wilmer Stampede Mesteth; (Oglala Lakota); Traditional Spiritual Leader & Lakota Culture Instructor; Oglala Lakota College, Pine Ridge, South Dakota
Darrell Standing Elk; (Sicangu Lakota); President, Center for the SPIRIT, San Fancisco, California, & Pine Ridge, South Dakota
Phyllis Swift Hawk; (Kul Wicasa Lakota); Tiospaye Wounspe Waokiye; Wanblee, South Dakota
October 25th, 2009 at 12:25 am
How?
That was a question by the way, not a greeting